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  1. #11
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    Basically we have to take Sawgrass' word that their patents mean what they claim they mean, unless we have the cash to challenge them in court. So the '907 patent may expire later this year, but they could easily claim one of their other patents is being breached by xxxxxxx selling sublimation inks, and we'd have to believe them.
    The interesting thing to watch in September is what if anything the other ink manufacturers do when the '907 patent expires, although it will still be in their interests to keep the status quo.
    Sawgrass must make a lot of money on sublimation ink sales, and aren't going to admit that their monopoly, neither would they admit that their patent isn't actually what they claim it is (if it wasn't) as it wouldn't be in their interests.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoonerGary View Post
    eBay is full of counterfeit goods and not quite legit products. I wouldn't even buy a memory card on that site. Those Chinese inks will always appear for a while.
    As long as the Chinese inks sublimate, then technically, they aren't fake or counterfeit. You could question their quality though I suppose, but I wouldn't just go with the they're crap because they're cheap, in the same way I don't believe that Sawgrass ink is best because it's most expensive.
    In the mind of Sawgrass, they aren't legit, and we have to take their word for it.

    I don't think anyone has the money to challenge the patent, I'm sure those back up patents could be exploited. I didn't think anyone had the right to run a monopoly?
    They have been challenged in the past - IIRC the idea of "42 inch wide format sublimation inks" was one result of the out of court settlement for a dispute between BASF and Sawgrass. Another settlement was with TOG and Sawgrass, where the judge was ruling in TOG's favour if they decided to go to trial. This is the more interesting case as the judge's ruling was saying that Sawgrass' '907 sublimation ink patent was for a sublimation ink which was protected from heat used in the print head, and for not clogging. I think (and I may be remembering wrong) that there were questions of non-declared prior art too) Now a sublimation ink which doesn't sublimate in printers which use heat in the print head (i.e. - bubble jet) is a clever thing and deserves to be patented - funny though that Sawgrass seemed to have abandoned this idea and just concentrate on piezo headed printers. So, it seems that Sawgrass' patent which will expire isn't for a standard sublimation ink like what we use in Epson printers, so either these are outside of the patent's scope or they have another patent which does cover more standard sublimation inks.
    So, TOG were due to win, but what would have happened if they had gone to trial/hearing (whatever the term is) .. so, they would have 'won' the case. But in US law, they would still have their own huge legal bill to pay, and following the 'win' the bottom would effectively fall out the market. They were making and selling sublimation inks a bit less expensive than Sawgrass were at that point - if the bottom fell out the marekt with everyone able to enter it, then their profits would also have to fall considerably with them having to compete in an open market. So, the effect would be Sawgrass losing their monopoly - an open market, but potentially a lot less money to be made. They settled out of court and also as part of the settlement TOG were allowed to continue trading in sublimation inks for 12 months to their existing client base.
    There are some big brands (companies much bigger than Sawgrass, with bigger pockets, and bigger in-house legal depts) currently paying Sawgrass a license fee to make/sell sublimation inks - are they doing this because they believe Sawgrass' patent is what they say it is, or is it because it's in their interests for the monopoly to continue, and/or is there more profit to made by paying the fees, than a huge lengthy legal battle before they can openly trade. These companies would also have the money to just buy Sawgrass if they wanted/needed, but they don't.

    Sawgrass' patents are all online, and you can Google for them quite easily. he case notes for the TOG trial are certainly online, and the BASF one probably are too, along with other trials they've been though.

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    Sawgrass have a good income, hold prices high. Those who produce under license hold prices reasonably high, make a nice profit, and give a bit to sawgrass. Good business practice for all. We make reasonable profit as we pass the cost on. So why does everyone get their knickers in a twist?
    How much will I save per item, if dye prices fall? Not £s!
    Mean time idiots try to undercut each other on prices of mugs etc.
    Add value through design, carve your own niche, leave the fools to earn pennies at most, more likely make a loss.
    In a nutshell put your energy into your own business, learn from sawgrass.
    Rant over, breathe, chill. I'll have a beer now.
    Janners.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pisquee View Post
    As long as the Chinese inks sublimate, then technically, they aren't fake or counterfeit. You could question their quality though I suppose, but I wouldn't just go with the they're crap because they're cheap, in the same way I don't believe that Sawgrass ink is best because it's most expensive.
    In the mind of Sawgrass, they aren't legit, and we have to take their word for it.
    .....
    I wasn't really referring to the ink being fake, just ebay in general being a minefield now to purchase from.

    Yeah I remember reading about the TOG case unfolding when I first got into sub. But one thing I do know is the price of ink sky rocketed after that court case.

    I was in my local photo lab today, his mugs were dire, Chinese everything I reckon!

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMugs View Post
    Sawgrass have a good income, hold prices high. Those who produce under license hold prices reasonably high, make a nice profit, and give a bit to sawgrass. Good business practice for all. We make reasonable profit as we pass the cost on. So why does everyone get their knickers in a twist?
    How much will I save per item, if dye prices fall? Not £s!
    Mean time idiots try to undercut each other on prices of mugs etc.
    Add value through design, carve your own niche, leave the fools to earn pennies at most, more likely make a loss.
    In a nutshell put your energy into your own business, learn from sawgrass.
    Rant over, breathe, chill. I'll have a beer now.
    Janners.
    Those pennies can mount up quickly if you sell enough mugs. Lots of different ways to go about business and make it work. You know what they say about looking after the pennies. ....

  6. #16
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    Those pennies can mount up quickly if you sell enough mugs.
    Have you ever kept track of the quantity of ink you use for a given number of items? You might be surprised to find how little you actually use and how little each print costs.
    It is possible you spend more on sub paper than on Sawgrass ink.. I was shocked to find out just how long 100ml of ink lasts, and I waste the stuff on experimental printing.

  7. #17
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    Yeah, never mind how much you use. Compare the price of that exact same ink in 100ml bottles compared to a 1000ml, it's astronomical. Imagine if Coca Cola did the same thing just because it is in a different bottle. We have a patent to sell coke in 330ml tins, don't even think of selling your soft drink in anything smaller than a litre.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoonerGary View Post
    Yeah, never mind how much you use. Compare the price of that exact same ink in 100ml bottles compared to a 1000ml, it's astronomical. Imagine if Coca Cola did the same thing just because it is in a different bottle. We have a patent to sell coke in 330ml tins, don't even think of selling your soft drink in anything smaller than a litre.
    It wouldn't be so much of a problem if it were just an economy of scale - i.e. it's cheaper per ml if you buy in bulk, this makes sense, and is common across lots of products. The problem I see is that the cost differences are stupid, and it isn't the quantity you buy/use per-se, but how big your printer is. To continue you Coke analogy - you can only buy a litre of Coke which costs £2 if you are over 6ft6" tall, if you are shorter than this, you can only buy Coke in tint 100ml cans, which cost £1.50.
    We have a 44" printer, and print big runs of fabric and so take advantage of the bulk inks and their low cost per ml - the ink certainly does go down quicker when you start printing by the metre, but it is quite possible for someone to be producing lots of mugs on a small format printer and still printing the same metre square area as we do on fabric, but having to pay 10x the amount for their ink, which seems daft.

  9. #19
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    I dont use sawgrass ink,I know people have found it the worlds best ink for sublimation.How does this ink differ from anybody's else's ink if its a 100ml or a 1 litre bottle, only price.
    I bought some refill cartridges and I got a chip reseter with them,fill up , away I go
    I found the guy in china but now stocks from the UK so 4 x 100ml £30.00 Bargain you say, must be rubbish you say,I actually think its ok and the colour match is very very good.very vibrant colours

  10. #20
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    Going to have to shut this thread down if you carry on discussing third party inks in small format folks. I don't make the rule but with some folk sat in wait to report to Sawgrass its for your own protection.
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