View Full Version : Combined printer cutter < 2m in physical width
ArferMo
18-02-2015, 12:34 PM
OK got a gap in the shed 2m wide where I want to put a combined printer cutter my preferred choice would be a BN20 but not got the volume of work to justify the cost.... even for a used one. Speed of output is not an issue. Needs to be either Eco solvent or UV ink. I'd love something that could print on the board used by estate agents, the likes of Correx but I believe that the BN20 has a max of 1mm.
Dont mind an old machine.... really old but I just don't know what models to look out for that can both print AND cut. Don't really want this thread to get in to the pro's and con's too much just a list of machines that have a physical width of no more than 2m that will print and cut would even consider an aqueous machine that I could convert as long as it has a DX4,DX5 or DX7 printhead.
If space was not such an issue then a different setup would be a no brainer:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt7swhHRDkM
mags1892
24-02-2015, 03:01 PM
Corex etc would have to be UV flatbed , look at Mimaki or Roland . IM a not a fan of print and cut as you have to reload the media to cut and Id rather have a offline cutter so I can print AND cut ;) .
You cannot convert a waterbased machine to solvent many try all fail, you need heaters before and after the print head. Epsons can take upto 1.5mm board and the older ones handle it better as its helped by gravity. Flat bed UV is expensive and the quality is not as good.
ArferMo
24-02-2015, 03:16 PM
Thanks for the info.
socialgiraffe
24-02-2015, 03:42 PM
IM a not a fan of print and cut as you have to reload the media to cut
Not sure where you got that from but it is 100% incorrect. A Roland will print and cut in one. I print thousands of stickers on MDP. The roll is loaded and the stickers come out the other side, not only cut to the customers bespoke shape but I can also cut into individual stickers so no need to trim them afterwards.
Not sure where you got your info from but they are wrong.
AFERMO, you can get a BN20 or a VS300 both are under 2 meters. The next one up may even be under 2. If you want to print direct onto Corex it will (as previously stated) need to be a flat bed. But you can print on vinyl and then mount on anything. I have doe this a few times for various projects.
mags1892
24-02-2015, 05:32 PM
If you print and cut without letting it GAS off then thats risky you need to let the material trial dry and ideally GAS OFF before you cut it. If yoiu print and cut its substantially slower than a seperate print and cut machine. SO really im not wrong.
phoenixalpha
24-02-2015, 05:45 PM
I think that only works for Mimaki - if I remember correctly Roland's new models print and cut in one sweep with no GAS issues.
socialgiraffe
24-02-2015, 05:47 PM
If you print and cut without letting it GAS off then thats risky you need to let the material trial dry and ideally GAS OFF before you cut it. If yoiu print and cut its substantially slower than a seperate print and cut machine. SO really im not wrong.
Sorry but you are still wrong ;-)
Firstly, you originally said that you have to reload the media, you do not. take advice from a very experienced Roland user. You have now changed it to gassing off, some of the early Solvent inks did require gassing off, but this is an out of date view, it is certainly not for Roland EcoSol inks on adhesive media. In actual fact, I can not think of one material I use that does require gassing off. There is no risk involved and to say so is simply scaremongering.
Lastly, as someone who has done extensive research into printing and cutting, there is no way two separate machines are faster than one Roland. I produce thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of stickers, if I need kit I am fortunate enough to just go out and buy it. I have done the tests, have had the machines and know from experience that one Roland is faster than two separate machines. Its also easier, more convenient and more productive.
ArferMo
24-02-2015, 05:51 PM
Maggs I don't think that the Eco ink needs that gassing time like the older solvent ink did..... just guessing.
Simon, thanks for that tip on the Corex I only need to print the off three or four now and then for traders signs so vinyl would be fine just extra cost each time.
mags1892
24-02-2015, 05:53 PM
I think we will agree to disagree try the test of a roland printing against a HP-Latex then using a graphtec 8000 or similar, then as the graphtec is cutting the hp is printing again. Every time i have tested the roland including the new 640the ink is not touch dry immediatly especially on glossy materials and cheaper materials, if you print on expensive material then maybe like metamark etc. Im a believer in seperate machines for a number of reasons a second printer for example using the same cutter. Im not a roland hater I think theyre great machines but I still KNOW eco solvent ink has to gas off . And what happens when you need to laminate ?
My opinions are valid im not wrong im not stupid its just my OPINION... PS I dont sell roland or mimaki or hp latex.....
mags1892
24-02-2015, 05:54 PM
Maggs I don't think that the Eco ink needs that gassing time like the older solvent ink did..... just guessing.
Simon, thanks for that tip on the Corex I only need to print the off three or four now and then for traders signs so vinyl would be fine just extra cost each time.
Try and print eco solvent then laminate without gassing off, delamination in no time. ONly the latex gets away with that and that also needs a little time to gas off, EVEN a waterbased epson canon and hp needs a little time to gas off and completely dry..
socialgiraffe
24-02-2015, 06:12 PM
Is the HP a solvent printer? Can you print on banner material (for example) is if outdoor ink?
That's fine that you are a fan of two machines, personally I prefer one machine that takes up less room, has less registration issues, and is faster than two machines, but that is just personal opinion based on personal experience.
I use Metamark because it works, tracks perfectly, gives superb results at a decent price, I don't do cheap as my customers expect quality. Plus last time I checked, the difference between cheap and quality substrate was about 20p per meter.
I do not understand the question about laminating. If I need to laminate, I take the media off the Roland, laminate it and then put it back. What is the difference between that and two machines?
Lastly, not accusing you of being stupid, just wrong ;-)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
socialgiraffe
24-02-2015, 06:15 PM
Why are you now changing it to be all about laminating?
Arfermo, the difference in cost will be nominal, print on vinyl will cost a max of 20-30p per double sided corex sales board. Am happy to run some samples for you to test.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
mags1892
24-02-2015, 06:17 PM
Im not making it bout laminating but thats an option. it seem there a couple egos here that need flattering well tough i have made my points and i stand by them you buy one machine for all and good luck im not going to slag anyont off and im not wrong i just dont recommend it to my clients thats all.
socialgiraffe
24-02-2015, 06:33 PM
The one thing a HP latex has over a print and cut is that you don't have to wait if you want to laminate, good for the HP, especially as cold lamination is on the decline in favour of better inks and liquid laminators.
Keep advising your clients, it will simply make me richer as I can do the job cheaper with superior materials (according to you).
Gassing off is wrong
Reloading media is wrong
Substantially slower is wrong
You should be advising your clients according to their production methods and space and not to what you incorrectly think. Arfermo's original question was regarding a print n cut machine less than 2 meters wide. You ignored this but instead suggested a set up that is well over 2 meters and supported this by making up lies about print n cuts. Yet it is my ego.... You are again wrong, it is your ego as you have offered advice on something you know nothing about and will not accept this.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
socialgiraffe
24-02-2015, 06:33 PM
And I presume you can not answer the question about HP ink?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
phoenixalpha
24-02-2015, 07:05 PM
I've used Rolands, Mimakis and HPs. The Roland IMO is the best especially at a print and cut. Yes if you are going laminate then its best to let it sit for a few hours to make sure it's 110% dry before laminating and then cutting but with good kit and decent product knowhow its an absolute breeze with a Roland to print then cut, no reloading, no messing around, no hassle.
If I was putting my own cash into a machine, I'd go Roland with ecosol inks 10 times out of 10. Its easier and a lot less hassle (maybe slightly less efficient time wise if you are running a cutter and printer side by side so you can print one job whilst the cutter is cutting another job) but for my own peace of mind I would rather run stuff without unmounting the media and then mounting on a cutter then finding registrations etc.
socialgiraffe
24-02-2015, 07:15 PM
Exactly Phoenix, although I take a very small issue with one thing which is relevant to small companies and one man bands (which I happen to know arfermo is)
I think it is a misconception to think that running side by side is more efficient. I think it is far more efficient to be able to set a printer running, leave it running for an hour or so while you are able to complete another job like mugs for example. Running two machines will split your time up meaning you can not get on with other work.
That is just my opinion (or ego if you like :-))
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
ArferMo
24-02-2015, 07:33 PM
No argument that if you have a lot of work a separate printer and cutter will give you more throughput but, I'm now tight for space as I already have 15 printers and 2 small titchy cutters that will be going once I find a combined printer/cutter at the right price.
Gassing off won't be an issue for me as I'm in no hurry and the cows outside in the field do enough gassing off for me anyway.
Surprised about the low cost of the vinyl for the sign board.... I thought 0.5m wide was about 6GBP per meter or is sign vinyl a lot cheaper than Soldark, I've not checked.
socialgiraffe
24-02-2015, 07:37 PM
A lot cheaper arfermo,, I think you can expect around £1-2 per meter for a five year calendar vinyl
Still not convinced on the throughput, on separate machines, but I doubt I will get to the stage where I need to worry about it anyway :-)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
ArferMo
24-02-2015, 07:48 PM
See the link on the very first post on this thread.
socialgiraffe
24-02-2015, 07:58 PM
That link is so loaded with errors and bias it's unreal.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
phoenixalpha
24-02-2015, 08:27 PM
I totally agree that from an ease of work point of view, running a print and cut is a lot easier (god knows... its how I do it) than running both machines simultaneously. I'm sure someone out there is running a printer and a cutter side by side and getting more work through than I would on a single print and cut machine (it makes logical sense that if I'm printing for an hour and cutting for an hour that two machines including loading and unloading could take less time than one machine doing it one step at a a time), but personally, from experience... I'd rather have slightly less throughput and more ease of mind that the machine knows what the it's doing (one thing at one time), than me running about loading and unloading media and running the very real risk that the separate printer and cutter aren't marrying up perfectly and its a waste of time, materials and money on a botched job.
Yes I've run materials which have to be laminated, yes it had to sit and dry overnight, yes it was a total pain in the behind getting it dismounted and then reregistered and then mounted and yes it caused me no end of stress and I could quite happily told the customer where to go before it all works... but it works but its a pain in the crack and then some. Its just so much easier - one print cut machine, one rip, one graphic file, one bit of software to do it all. Let the printer cutter take the strain and get on with doing other stuff while it does its stuff rather than print, dismount, remount, reregister, re rip and cut then dismount.
Anyhoo back to the original point of the thread. Get a Roland if you can afford it. If you want to do corex for signage, print onto clear vinyl and mount onto corex that way. If it needs lamination put it through a laminator and then mount on to corex (if using a roland and ecosol, no need to let it degas overnight, just leave it for a wee while to make sure its completely dry and then some.
AlanD
24-02-2015, 08:41 PM
I buy in digital print for signage and van livery and standard practice if laminating would be to let it out gas for a few hours and preferably overnight. Stickers with colour bleeding off and especially with heavy ink coverage also benefit from out gassing before contour cutting, not doing so can lead to edges curling. If laminating you have no choice but to take it off the machine, either print and cut machine or separates. This is relevant for solvent machines as latex and UV are a different animal.
If you do intend to print and cut after laminating you do lose a fair bit of vinyl as the registration marks can be fairly large, Roland in particular, not so much an issue with wide machines but it does cut down your useable width on something like the BN20.
You can't beat the convenience of print and cut machines assuming laminating is not required but for production 2 machines would be my choice assuming you have the budget and space because even the smaller print machines are a fair old size, add to that a cutter and a laminating machine and you need plenty of space.
You can argue the toss about durability of the various ink types but for vehicle work I always have them laminated.
socialgiraffe
24-02-2015, 09:05 PM
Hi AlanD, I can not comment on van vinyl as this is normally a maximum of 80 micron which I do not use. But the thousands of stickers I print, some with very heavy coverage and almost everyone with a bleed do not need gassing off and do not curl. But then it's 100 micron.
These are retail quality so need to be spot on and are sold worldwide without issue. I suspect the thickness of the material means it it does not curl.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
AlanD
24-02-2015, 09:40 PM
Yes sign vinyl is quite thin and this could well be the reason for requiring outgassing. I am on the uksignboards (sign makers forum) and the outgassing subject has been a regular topic and not many would consider laminating without a period of outgassing as good practice.
ArferMo
26-02-2015, 09:12 AM
Is it a bad idea for me to buy an old Roland VersaCAMM SP-300 or would I be better off buying something else or even something smaller.
Like is there anything that the Roland VersaCAMM SP-300 can or can't do compared to a BN20 for example (not counting printing width)
phoenixalpha
26-02-2015, 09:29 AM
I think the only advantage the BN would have over the SP300 would be the fifth colour - either white or metallic.
ArferMo
26-02-2015, 09:41 AM
White and metallic sound really great and useful but seems they are an expensive luxury that hardly anyone seems to use plus some people never even use them before they run out with maintenance cycles. I initially thought yea that will be great then decided to steer clear.
I've heard that the old 300's can be a pain to get going on W7/8 but not bothered about that aspect.
socialgiraffe
26-02-2015, 10:25 AM
The biggest moan about the BN20 is the speed, it is much slower than the bigger brothers, even an old 300. To make a cheaper machine they had to cut corners, so things like servo motors on the cutting side are missing on the 20 to make it as cheap as possible.
As someone who has white and metallic I 100% agree with you regarding "expensive luxury". I have had the "purchase ink and throw it down the drain in cleaning cycles before using it" a few times. I have since got a workaround which means I no longer purchase white or metallic which saves £230.00 plus VAT!. Bear in mind I am in the music industry where bling is full on.... I have not done a metallic job in over a year!
Also, white and metallic ink can not be used on all medias, so you could not use it on garments and the metallic is really fussy on a lot of other medias.
Rolands are built very well, but like any printer, if it has been abused you are not going to get very far.
AlanD
26-02-2015, 04:57 PM
One of my suppliers has a BN and it is slow, he has the metalic option which I think he uses once every other blue moon. I think the BN is similar in quality as the VS range of roland printers and I have to say the quality of print is very good. How that quality comapares to a 300i I don't know bu tit is certainly better than the early Versa Camms I've seen.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.