What do you think is fair? [Archive] - DSF

JSR

19-09-2010, 11:19 PM

i once enquired about such a fee for my own forums and was told it wasnt legal to do so ..
Not something I'm aware of but I will look into this. I would have thought if the forum was made part of a business it could be done.
I've not heard of that either. So long as it's declared (and the cost of the hosting is declared, too) in your books, then surely it's just as legal as any other legal business transaction.

Likewise, if we pay by PayPal, we'll all get a payment receipt and we can all declare our payments in our own books too. Everything's above board, no worries.

Andrew

20-09-2010, 11:10 AM

I personally think it should be optional on fees. We are trying to build a decent membership base and compulsory charges would hinder this. For those that donate to the forum then added benfits should be given. Website listings/backlinks, special offers arranged with suppliers, "members only" section could be created. Supplier Advertising /Supplier pages are a must in my opinion. Doesn't have to be a large fee and all suppliers should be welcome to have their own section. We already have a listing for suppliers so one step further shouldn't be a problem. We want this to be the main resource for sublimation and it has built well so far so it's time to move onward and upward.

Justin

22-09-2010, 07:01 PM

OK, latest results on the poll indicate most members would prefer advertising/sponsorship etc. as a way of funding. A fair bit of support for £5/£10 per annum membership as well.

My thoughts at the moment are to have a single advertising banner at the top of the forum and a section devoted to suppliers where they could advertise promotions/new products/discounts and so on. Member would then have the option whether or not to view these sections. Just thinking out loud at this stage but I will start to look at adapting the forum towards this. We'll still need regular donations which just aren't happening right now, other than a couple recently (many thanks to you both!) but this would give us a great foundation.

If I have any further ideas I'll post. I don't really want to start the whole debate on adverts again. I know some members wouldn't be happy, I'm not that chuffed myself but unless we can find a better way.....

Andrew

22-09-2010, 07:16 PM

Don't see a problem with adverts myself. I know another site had the option of making a payment so the ads don't appear to them. I would go banner plus a few smaller ad options in other places.

Paul

22-09-2010, 07:21 PM

OK, latest results on the poll indicate most members would prefer advertising/sponsorship etc. as a way of funding. A fair bit of support for £5/£10 per annum membership as well.

My point of view on that is:

Why most people wish to see advertising/sponsorship??? coz they dont want to pay a penny for membership even that they know this forum is worth every penny! some people may think... advert r ok.. I wont click on them any way... but some one may do...

Is here any one who think few banners will rise enough funds for descent hosting and other forum needs?? i dont think so. but member ship would. in my opinion first think we should do is DELETE ALL members from data base with count of 0 posts. by charging mmbs ship we would know who is actualy willing to help otheres or simply just wish to learn bit more. c'mon people! £10 is just 2 printed mugs.

also I would like to know what is behind the word "sponsorship".

I personally think it should be optional on fees. We are trying to build a decent membership base and compulsory charges would hinder this. For those that donate to the forum then added benfits should be given. Website listings/backlinks, special offers arranged with suppliers, "members only" section could be created. Supplier Advertising /Supplier pages are a must in my opinion. Doesn't have to be a large fee and all suppliers should be welcome to have their own section. We already have a listing for suppliers so one step further shouldn't be a problem. We want this to be the main resource for sublimation and it has built well so far so it's time to move onward and upward.
Aggre with 99%!!!

my 5p

Justin

22-09-2010, 07:51 PM

OK, so by saying I didn't want to re-open the debate...... :cry:

We could dicsuss the ins and outs forever and never get around to moving forward.

My personal opinion for the record is that I'd sooner stay well clear of any adverts etc. and keep the forum clean. A simple advert banner at the top won't be too distracting but I'd prefer not to have one at all.

I agree, £10 per year is nothing for the support we all get regardless of our level of experience. Selling items through the forum is free and you have a great target audience that will often snap things up. It's all about being in a community and helping each other, yes there's the question as to whether you're helping your future competitor but it's up to you to find your own niche. When I ran my previous business full-time there were several dye-sub companies within a few miles and it took a lot of work to carve out my own market but it can be done.

I'll certainly not be removing all users Paul :shock: We do use member groups on the forum and I can immediately see who's contributed etc. I would add however that I've had many comments from members saying they're all too happy to contribute but never have...just a thought and not a criticsm.

So the poll was to give us an idea of what you all want. Not many people have voted so it isn't a great cross section, it's up to you to vote and tell me what you want. The final decision won't be popular with everyone but I'd sooner keep as many members happy as I can if I can't please everyone.

Justin

22-09-2010, 08:18 PM

OK, latest results on the poll indicate most members would prefer advertising/sponsorship etc. as a way of funding. A fair bit of support for £5/£10 per annum membership as well.
also I would like to know what is behind the word "sponsorship".

Sorry Paul, I didn't answer this. Basically mean that the supplier has there own section in a category where they can have full control over what's put in there, offers, products and so on. I don't mean sponsorship of the site by a single supplier....we all know where that leads :? I think this would be a good idea anyway, even if we don't offer advertising.

Justin

22-09-2010, 10:06 PM

Taking a step back from all of this tonight and thinking. Maybe we're looking at this too much. Is the past I asked for support to cover initial charges and can proudly say members rallied around with great generosity. Do we really need adverts? Do we really need membership? Ok, donations are thin on the ground right now but maybe we should stick to the tried and tested method.

Is this a fair way forward? Will a few members be paying the way for others ? Discuss! ;)

JSR

22-09-2010, 11:04 PM

I'm normally against adverts, and sponsorship by suppliers has its own pitfalls, and I've said all that before so I shan't be dwelling on it again. If it needs to be, it needs to be and that's all that needs to be said on the matter.

I would just like to echo an important point that Paul made -

Is here any one who think few banners will rise enough funds for descent hosting and other forum needs??
How much will you actually raise from adverts? I would imagine most people these days are (i) wary of clicking on anything that looks like unsolicited advertising - for security issues, and/or (ii) use ad-blocking software in their browsers so they won't see the adverts anyway.

I'm a member of a few forums and it's only when I check posts on my smartphone that I realise the forums have adverts. When I browse on my netbook, I don't see the adverts and didn't think there were any.

If all you're going to get is a trickle of pennies, with the result of everyone saying "I don't need to donate, you're clearly raking it in from the adverts", then the whole "adverts/banners" philosophy will be counter-productive.

We need to ensure that you cover all of your costs - not just part of them, otherwise you'll end up having to do both advertising *and* donations/membership fees.

Do you know roughly what your costs will be yet, Justin? Is it likely that donations would be enough?

Justin

22-09-2010, 11:23 PM

Good points that I take onboard ;) I just like to look from every angle.

Costs are still fairly low. I've signed up to a basic package that'll be £15 p/m paid quartely and the first payment was about £52. In time I hope we'll be able to justify a bigger package and this would be about £27 p/m but we can see how it goes.
Domain registration is on top of this but that's not a great amount. Future development costs have to be factored in, modifications etc. but this is ongoing.

It still isn't great shakes and I don't mind putting my hand into my pocket as I have on many occasions over the past year, of course I don't, but I want to know we can cover at least a good whack of the fees to allow me to concentrate on future developments.

No rash decisions, let's see how it all pans out with the virtual server. I'll be tied up with that for a while I'm guessing :shock:
I think we'd be in quite a unique position if we could run without advertising or fixed membership, just take a look at other forums. Maybe we could attract more members by throwing the net a little wider. When I started the DSF it was solely for sublimation but we quickly realised that all of the other subjects discussed here are linked in some way, perhaps we need to find more links?

Whispered Spirit

23-09-2010, 01:27 PM

Well to be honest I have gotten so much valuable information from this site as a newbie that the money it has saved me from doing things right rather than costing a fortune and doing things wrong then a membership fee is like people say the cost of approx 2 mugs out of your life a year. :)

Only downside I see is that ya maybe wanting a tenner :roll:

£9.99 sounds so much more attractive. .. Its a psychilogical thing innit. :lol:

I'd happily cough up :mrgreen:

AJLA

24-09-2010, 12:26 PM

I couldnt agree more with what whispy has said and i'm happy to cough up too.

I think many of us have found the info provided here so very valuble and hopefully in turn over time we have also been able to provide a little of that back.

I am embrassed to say that I have not contributed thus far for fear of not knowing "what" to contribute and would my offerings be deemed meagere ones :oops:

Ian M

24-09-2010, 12:53 PM

I am embrassed to say that I have not contributed thus far for fear of not knowing "what" to contribute and would my offerings be deemed meagere ones :oops:

Don't be embarassed at all Mandy as what may seem meagre to you could mean a lot to the rest of us. Any snippet of info is worth its weight in gold to others.

Ian :D

JSR

24-09-2010, 01:43 PM

Just a reminder for everyone who says "I'm happy to pay a tenner"...

The link at the top of the forum that says "Donate to DSF" (http://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/forum/donate/) would be a good place to visit if you haven't donated already.

Justin can't bank promises and the server bill won't be paid by wishful thinking. Donate now... I'm sure if paid membership is required, Justin will take into account any recent donations by contributors.

And the good thing about donations is that you don't have to donate a tenner. A fiver will do if that's all you have spare right now. Rather ten people donate a fiver than five people decide they can't afford a tenner.

Go on, you know you want to do it... :)

AJLA

24-09-2010, 04:20 PM

All done me andsum !! I even chucked the penny in whispy ;)

thespringonion

24-09-2010, 05:14 PM

I've paid my contribution too! Frankly I've never noticed the donation link otherwise it'd have been done much earlier on!

Whispered Spirit

24-09-2010, 06:32 PM

All done me andsum !! I even chucked the penny in whispy ;)

Hahaha! well done Mandy. But Do you reckon the mugs shown on ebay sound more attractive at £6.99 than telling someone there 7 quid? :lol:

I dont have paypal but Someone mentioned that you can make 1 off payments via the site. Dont know how you do it but I'm all ears ready to part with £9.9... ok a Tenner :mrgreen:

Justin

24-09-2010, 06:38 PM

Anything helps, no matter how small a donation. I don't like to ram the donations down folks throats but I will be introducing a full page flash PayPal button and screaming banshee asking politely for a little help ;)

AJLA

25-09-2010, 08:55 AM

Yes your'e right whispy it is a phsycological thing, I often hear people say they paid a fiver for somthing when actually it was a penny less than six pound. Crazy.

Anyway every little helps....the option is there to pay by credit card or paypal. The sites worth every penny and without our good ole Justin arranging it for us just where would we all be.

DREAMGLASS

12-10-2010, 09:02 AM

As a relative newcomer to this site, I guess that I can sit on the fence and take a more detached view of the forum and its 'commercial feasibility'.

In its current format, I personally think you would really struggle to get any form of paid membership. At the moment you have a relatively small number of members, very little technical resources by the way of tutorials, videos or technical information sheets and not a great deal of activity in the forums themselves.

I know a lot of people come into sublimation via eBay. They buy a press and a few supplies hoping to make a quick killing, until they realise that without the ability to create original designs and an enquiring mind to assimilate a technical knowledge the proposed business will be going nowhere. The fact that there are as many virtually unused presses and sublimation gear for sale on eBay as there are new items, speaks absolute volumes. ;)

From the prospect of the forums, I guess you need to attract the folks that are in it for 'the long haul' and for whom sublimation forms a decent part of their production methods. Quite how you attract and retain those folks, is a subject in itself.

Paul

12-10-2010, 10:01 AM

In its current format, I personally think you would really struggle to get any form of paid membership. At the moment you have a relatively small number of members, very little technical resources by the way of tutorials, videos or technical information sheets and not a great deal of activity in the forums themselves.

i think you just answered your own question. becose there is no great amount of members mean we wont get ANY money from ads etc. as you need 1000s clics or impresions to make any thing. regards to tutorials i already made few videos on request so its no a problem to do more if needed. but i still think there is biger benefit of this foru... real people talk. stright, helpfull and always ready. thats better then videos, pdfs etc... and i dont think we need 265 members to answer question or help if any one got a problem. 1 member who experienced problem before and got solution is enough. personaly i would be more then happy to pay 5 or 10 quid for mmbrs ship and get my issues sorted then seat on my bum whole week and scratch my head thinking 'what to do...' btw. all 'yellow' colored members already contributed to the forum so its like they already have mbrs ship.

DREAMGLASS

12-10-2010, 05:46 PM

Looking back at the listed users over the last 24 hours, there are three times as many that haven't made any sort of financial contributions to these forums.

Therein lies the problem. Once you start charging for something that folks are historically used to getting for free, people will just vacate and find alternative venues. Same thing happened with Lycos search engine and the online newspapers that now charge. It's nothing personal, just human nature.

Justin

12-10-2010, 07:15 PM

As a relative newcomer to this site, I guess that I can sit on the fence and take a more detached view of the forum and its 'commercial feasibility'.

Always nice to get a different angle ;)

In its current format, I personally think you would really struggle to get any form of paid membership. At the moment you have a relatively small number of members, very little technical resources by the way of tutorials, videos or technical information sheets and not a great deal of activity in the forums themselves.

Don't underestimate the knowledge held by the members, better to have a few dozen highly experienced members than 1000's of new starters! Questions are almost always answered very quickly. I have mentioned tutorials etc. before would need some help with this due to time constraints. I'm always keen to push the forum forward and have as much info. in one place as we can so I do welcome any suggestions/offers of help.

I know a lot of people come into sublimation via eBay. They buy a press and a few supplies hoping to make a quick killing, until they realise that without the ability to create original designs and an enquiring mind to assimilate a technical knowledge the proposed business will be going nowhere. The fact that there are as many virtually unused presses and sublimation gear for sale on eBay as there are new items, speaks absolute volumes. ;)

We must spread the word! or rather letters D.S.F! "Now I've built it they should come".....sounds familier :lol:

From the prospect of the forums, I guess you need to attract the folks that are in it for 'the long haul' and for whom sublimation forms a decent part of their production methods. Quite how you attract and retain those folks, is a subject in itself.

I'm not keen on advertising nor am I keen on regular memberships which is why I have deliberated so long over the available options. I had hoped donations would become somewhat more regular as I don't need a huge amount to keep things ticking over. There's no mad rush to get funds in, I'm happy to continue as we are for now.

Justin

12-10-2010, 07:18 PM

Looking back at the listed users over the last 24 hours, there are three times as many that haven't made any sort of financial contributions to these forums.

It's a very small percentage of members that have made any financial contribution I'm afraid. :(

Therein lies the problem. Once you start charging for something that folks are historically used to getting for free, people will just vacate and find alternative venues. Same thing happened with Lycos search engine and the online newspapers that now charge. It's nothing personal, just human nature.

Whilst I agree we don't have as many members as similar forums, it's important to bear in mind that the DSF is more specific in it's knowledge base and if you look at the alternative forums the traffic in similar categories is far less. Members are often thanked for such prompt and detailed responses to problems.

jennywren

11-11-2010, 10:17 PM

One advantage of beeing on this forum, it that the expertise is vast, I read all the questions and answers even if it does'nt apply to me, as the mixture of answers allow me to understand most of what been said, and has lead me to increase what I make. In saying that the printers and ink section I just can't grasp it, it only gets a quick peek. This forum is value for money. If the money your required is not reached when you need it, do you what you need to, I'm not bothered which way, as long as it contuines, I'd quite happy to pay again if this would help, (please no lectures on the right of wrong on this) all I'm trying to say I would pay twice for it, and it does'nt bother me if people don't pay, some will some won't. The only people that will lose out are those that are serious about what we do and what we want to achive. Long live the forum, and may we all prosper from it, I know I do.

SteveUK

23-11-2010, 11:26 PM

£10 per annum got to be worth that :D

Justin

03-12-2010, 07:55 PM

Been a while since I've posted on this so I thought I'd make my thoughts known. There is still background work being carried out on the forum. I will have the facility to place adverts here but havn't made a final decision on this yet.

The way I would like to move forward is by charging members £5 per annum membership. I feel that this is a very small price to pay for the technical knowledge on tap here and would enable me to continue pushing forward.

I've listened to the feedback being given and I appreciate this a great deal. Generally current members don't seem to have a problem with a small fee being charged. I know it won't please all members and I can't expect to please all of the folk all of the time but I have to find a way to get regular funds coming in. Requests for donations just aren't bringing in enough to even cover hosting fees. Yes, I agree it may well put off some new members joining so I'm looking at having an initial 'trial' period before the subscription has to be paid.

I'm still looking at other ideas but currently feel this is the best compromise available. I'll update again soon.

Justin
DSF Admin

bms

03-12-2010, 08:19 PM

Sounds perfectly reasonable. Just need to think of a way to minimise the admin associated with renewals otherwise this would be an administrative nightmare given 12 month memberships would end at different times of the year. You might consider the annual membership runs from Jan 1st to Dec 31st giving a common time for renewals. If anyone joins, say before the end of June then the full fee applies and after that then a smaller fee of whatever you decide applies to the end of the year.

Paul

03-12-2010, 08:37 PM

i am more then happy with this option ;) thumbs up!

Paul

03-12-2010, 08:38 PM

Justin

03-12-2010, 08:46 PM

I have an update to the forum that will manage the subscriptions ;)

Had a couple of enquiries form suppliers so I'm looking at that from a slightly different angle.

Ian M

03-12-2010, 09:25 PM

I'm all for it Justin.

Ian :D

JSR

03-12-2010, 10:47 PM

Sounds reasonable.

You'd need a script that would cut off access to those who don't pay/renew. The last thing you'd want is to spend your time chasing people to renew.

That said, have you analysed the new members and how long they stay around? If it's the case that new members join, ask questions to get started, and then don't ask any more then they probably wouldn't care that they lost access after 12 months. They'd already have their teeth-cutting questions answered.

Is it really sustainable?

Perhaps you could ask contributing suppliers to put together a "monthly deal" that's only available to paid-up members (not "trial period members"), so that people have a reason to renew if they're not asking questions. Suppliers could take it in turns to offer such a deal, so that they don't feel obliged to do it every month (and so that they're not tripping over their own competition). These would need to be deals that are accessible to everyone - not just "free delivery on a £1000 heat press" kind of thing.

It could also work the other way around. If a supplier gets a new customer buying a "starter kit" or bundle, or whatever, they could include a year's membership to DSF in the bundle and bung a fiver in the DSF kitty on behalf of that customer.

What do you think?

Justin

03-12-2010, 11:36 PM

Good comments there. Yes, the issue with regards to new members is tricky and we certainly need incentives for them to stick around, suppliers may well hold the key here. I like the idea of throwing in a subscription with every package sale.

John G

03-12-2010, 11:48 PM

I said from the start that due to the info given freely on this site it should be a paid for membership but I think you might have to look into how its run for legal reasons if your going to have a membership fee/advertising options.

If you charge for membership, plus any monies coming from advertising you will have to run it as a legit business, pay taxes on any income or profit and keep books for tax return purposes etc. This would all add up and I think the £5 / £10 your thinking of charging wouldn't be enough to sustain a business.

Going back to trial membership - as JSR mentioned, the ask one question and scarpa brigade wouldn't bother paying the membership fee. I see the only way around this would be restricted areas where they can join for free but only have access to certain topics/sections of the forum - more info needed or access to members info/contacts and i'm afraid they'd have to pay for it.

Cheers John

Paul

04-12-2010, 01:15 AM

I like the idea of throwing in a subscription with every package sale.
I dont tbh :)
I think suppliers should be "members" too. but pay bit diferent for membership acces.

bms

04-12-2010, 01:42 PM

pay taxes on any income or profit
You might be able to avoid this if the organisation is set up as a members club - there won't be "profits" which are taxable, but surplus of income over expenditure which wouldn't be taxable in the same sense as a "company".

I see the point that John makes - I guess there are a lot more people browsing the forum rather than being a member. So there needs to be an incentive for browsers to register and pay up. What would that incentive be?

Justin

04-12-2010, 09:11 PM

Again I need to look into the legalities before making any final decisions. I really want to work towards creating more incentives for members to join whether it's thorugh regular supplier discounts for members only or new sections that all members including the experienced will benefit.

Background work continues but I do need to stress that donations are few and far between. I'm looking at pushing forward again, possibly changing the format of the forum, upgrading etc. to enable us to have new sections and far more functionality but I can only cover so much of this by myself.

Ideas and suggestions always appreciated ;)

bms

05-12-2010, 01:10 PM

stress that donations are few and far between
What sort of running costs are there likely to be per annum? If there are 450 members at present and each contributes £5 then that gives you £1800. What magnitude of costs are there per annum? £100, £500, £1000, £2000?

You should have received my donation recently as well as other members saying they've made some form of payment, but can you give us some indication of how much is needed each year?

John G

05-12-2010, 01:18 PM

Thats the problem - there might be 450 members but i'd bet that well over two thirds wouldn't pay for membership.

bms

05-12-2010, 01:24 PM

Thats the problem - there might be 450 members but i'd bet that well over two thirds wouldn't pay for membership.
That's okay though if the 1/3 do (150) and all pay £5 bringing in £750 if that is what is needed to cover the running costs. If we don't know what the running costs are likely to be each year then it's all academic discussion about how many will pay and how much they would pay.

Justin

05-12-2010, 01:29 PM

Charing for the forum isn't sitting well with me, I have mixed views. I'm looking at everything this weekend with a view to reducing curent costs and getting the arcade/gallery etc. back online. If things go to plan I won't need the same income to run the forum at this stage. However, to move forward with additional sections, storage and so on a regular income will be needed. Swings and roundabouts.

I would stress however that I'm not in this to make any sort of income. If members would prefer total transparancy with costs I can do that. We used to have the graph showing current funds for each project, maybe this would be good to put back?

I moved the forum over to a virtual server and whilst this has cured all down-time issues it's created some background problems that are proving difficult to sort. I'm looking at going back to a hosted platform again, the biggest benefit would be a huge cost saving but there will always be a risk of down-time this way, all be it minimal.

Whilst we have 450 members we rarely have more than 10% regular visitors from this. A request for donations usually yields 5/6 individuals and whilst this is greatly appreciated it begs the question why does no-one else wnat to donate?

Martin, not seen any donation come through I'm afraid, when was this made please?

bms

05-12-2010, 01:37 PM

Martin, not seen any donation come through I'm afraid, when was this made please?
Will pm you the details...

Paul

05-12-2010, 02:31 PM

you will see martin donation from my email address...

JSR

05-12-2010, 02:50 PM

If members would prefer total transparancy with costs I can do that. We used to have the graph showing current funds for each project, maybe this would be good to put back?
In the case of donations, putting up a chart with a total required together with "Donate" buttons beneath would be a good option. It might also be useful to put a note next to it saying "x out of 450 members have donated" so that everyone knows where the situation stands.

If everyone knows the target, what the donations are for, and how far there is to go, then it would probably help encourage donations.

Perhaps also, everyone who contributes to answer a question could have a line in their signature which goes something like - "Have you been helped today? You can help others - your donation of £5 will help to keep this forum running.", with a link to the donate page/button.

Justin

05-12-2010, 02:53 PM

If everyone knows the target, what the donations are for, and how far there is to go, then it would probably help encourage donations.

This certainly always used to be the case. When I put the graph up and said we need x for hosting etc. we very quickly met the targets.

John G

05-12-2010, 04:24 PM

Oh come on - this is a business, as soon as Justin realises this the better. Your saying that you don't want anything for doing all the background work, ground work, updating the forum and spending anywhere between 2 - 7 hours per day/week sorting this forum out for free - what happens when someone has a problem and wants value for money for their membership - who's accountable.

This has got to be ran as a profitable business - cannot see it surviving any other way.

Paul

05-12-2010, 05:03 PM

This has got to be ran as a profitable business - cannot see it surviving any other way.
:| john. did you ever ben member of subli-nation forum???

JSR

05-12-2010, 05:13 PM

Many people run forums without it being a business (I'm one of them).

Accountability is an important factor, though. If people pay their fiver and expect immediate and instant help/support, which they then don't get, they would rightly think that there should be someone to blame.

It would need to be clearly specified that the forum membership consists of volunteers who don't get paid for their time and that the membership fee is purely to pay for hosting costs.

If this isn't clearly stated then people would expect immediate and instant help/support and the only way to accomplish this would be to pay those who answer the questions - this, in turn, would increase the membership fee significantly. That situation would be untenable because no one would pay the high costs associated with paying people to answer questions.

Paul

05-12-2010, 05:32 PM

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm46/hastosaja/thumbs_up_bci.jpg

but... I think £5 would be not for customer service. It would be for the forum content :)

John G

05-12-2010, 05:46 PM

I don't think it should be volunteers - and no, I was never a member of the subli-nation forum. I run a business and don't expect others to give their time for free which is the reason for my post regarding "What kind of a business is your business".

The above thread showed that out of around 23 DSF members 9 were either hobby, beer money or charity ran. Well running a business would i want to give info to my competitors that don't pay tax, keep books or pay vat and can crucify me with their prices. It really opened my eyes and after seeing the results i'd be very wary about giving info so freely to non paying members. Times are pretty hard at the moment and the last thing i'd want is to be under cut by someone producing mugs, or printed t'shirts from their bedroom, that id's given free advice to!

JSR

05-12-2010, 05:55 PM

It really opened my eyes and after seeing the results i'd be very wary about giving info so freely to non paying members. Times are pretty hard at the moment and the last thing i'd want is to be under cut by someone producing mugs, or printed t'shirts from their bedroom, that id's given free advice to!
I mentioned something like this early on in the discussion. My concern was that it's fine for newbies to pay because they're saving money by having the experts solve their problems. The experts have already been through it, wasted money and time, to find the answers.

While the newbies get value for money for their payment, the experts are being asked to pay money and then help their competition to undercut them - which doesn't really make a lot of sense for those who are answering the questions. By making everyone pay, there's the risk that the experts with the answers will go away, leaving all the newbies with plenty of questions but no answers.

That doesn't seem to be the way forward because we need to encourage experts to post here, not chase them away. There needs to be something to be gained for the experts as well as the uninitiated.

Paul

05-12-2010, 06:04 PM

Times are pretty hard at the moment and the last thing i'd want is to be under cut by someone producing mugs, or printed t'shirts from their bedroom, that id's given free advice to!
I am not sure If I understnad this sentence corectly... Do you mean you wont help somone with they printing problems for free?? Only becouse they may offer cheaper goods then you?

John G

05-12-2010, 07:49 PM

accdave

05-12-2010, 08:01 PM

Paul

05-12-2010, 08:26 PM

Ian M

05-12-2010, 08:40 PM

I think one of the best examples to look at is how classic car clubs operate. I was involved with quite a few classic car clubs over the last 20 odd years & all the one make clubs have experts on each particular model to help member with any techinical problems.

Now most clubs are run by volunteers including the model experts. In every club magazine it does state that anyone who is a contact is a volunteer & replies will not be instant depending on that volunteers time. Now all clubs charge an annual fee to cover running costs & any profits are a plus which then can be used for mainly members benefits.

I have found that if you let your members know the expectations from club officals they are all very happy understanding & happy with that.

One club that I know of closed its forum to non members & they found a drop in new members joining that club. The committee then decided to trial opening the forum back up to non members & the number of new members increased.

I have no idea how many people make a donation to this forum but, I suspect there are far too many people with short arms & deep pockets. If you donate £5 per year it works out at around under 2p per day now, tell me what you can get for 2p these days?

Ian

Paul

05-12-2010, 08:43 PM

Paul, I think you know exactly what I mean - look through my posts. I've tried to help quite a few people, if i can, whether it be with my knowledge of screen printing, which i answered quite a lot of your questions, or my limited knowledge of sublimation. In future, until this is a paid for forum, i'll be choosy who i offer my experience to - very similar to your frames or mug templates, you charge for them on the forum don't you.!

I know now John. But I am not agree with it.
I appreciat all tips I had from you about screen printing but I must say I learnd all from dvd's I bought and from trial and error method.

please let me remind your first post john:

Hi All, Just a little intro as I'm new to this forum, and to sublimation printing in general. I run a screen printing company in Newcastle and have just branched out into sub printing with the purchase of a Ricoh 5050n along with a mug press. 1st impressions are quite good, a few teething troubles to start with but I was expecting that with the new machinery and the process to learn.

Sorry in advance for all the daft newby questions i'll be asking and i'm looking forward to getting to know you all.

Cheers John PS: I've spoke/conversed with justin (JNMann) regarding ricoh printers on another forum - so at least I now one of you
John G

I dont remember anyone on here asked you if you doing that for leaving or are you paying tax etc...also no one asked you if you going to under cut our pricec before answered your questions..

I dont want to steer some s***t but I think we wont go to far with this forum with attitiude like that :(

regards to templates I charge for hem on my website. not forum. I only posted ad on here. and in correct section. same as you with you SP t-shirts.

I only charge for them as they are not main! artist charge for them. I only have commission payed. All stuff, graphics, tutorials etc wich was created by me I uploaded for free and I always will. any way... I can't see any relation with my templates and this...

accdave

05-12-2010, 08:47 PM

To a large part I'm with John G on this. When it's your living it's very difficult to know who really needs help or who is looking to cut your throat with cheap e-bay pricing and lack of any sort of legitimacy when it comes to business.
So whats the point be on forum like that Dave???

I only said I mainly agree, didn't say it was the answer :D

As somebody who does this full time and therefore classed as a proffesional then I'm happy to pay a fee for access to certain sections where the information is provided by like minded members.

Anybody new who is seriously thinking of taking it up seriously I reckon would also pay a nominal fee.

Having said that a lot of information they want could be found on other forums I suppose

Paul

05-12-2010, 08:51 PM

Having said that a lot of information they want could be found on other forums I suppose
But we more friendly on here ;) and we dont mind aswer question quick :P well. it was like that so far... ;)

Ian M

05-12-2010, 08:55 PM

Handbags at dawn anyone :lol:

accdave

05-12-2010, 08:58 PM

I think it's a shame in a discussion like this one person has got personal.

John G

05-12-2010, 09:00 PM

I see your point Ian but a member of a classic cars forum isn't going to take your depth of car knowledge then go on to sell it on ebay for £2.99, just so they can have a pint off the profits.

I'm afraid i'm one of the short arms, deep pockets brigade - quite willing to pay a membership fee that I can put through the books as a professional subscription but not willing to make a donation that I couldn't justify to my accountant.

Paul, my first post was upfront, honest and informative - an intro left for others to read and understand where i'm coming from rather than - 1st post - ebay purchased epson blocked , what do I do.

btw - I think your trying to be too clever and aggressive, especially for someone in your position on the forum, but haven't quite read what you have quoted:

I run a screen printing company in Newcastle

I dont remember anyone on here asked you if you doing that for leaving
:lol:

I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to belittle me in the future

Paul

05-12-2010, 09:03 PM

btw - I think your trying to be too clever and aggressive, especially for someone in your position on the forum,
please accept my apologies if my post was aggresive. I did not mean that.

bms

05-12-2010, 09:11 PM

This is probably the longest debated issue in the history of the forum thusfar (not just on this thread) and the principle at stake is who funds it and if it's not the members does it affect the impartiality of forum users.

If all members have to pay then I'm sure, as John suggests, you'll see a huge decline in active members. Several members on here post questions which could equally be answered by the original supplier of the equipment or picking up the phone and speaking to the technical department of such suppliers. Why do they post here then? Well possibly they post here AS WELL as contacting elsewhere and benefit from whoever reponds soonest or when there is a crisis.

The implication of wanting members to all pay is that the DSF remains independant and that it doesn't become a surrogate for the SubliNation forum which was funded by, moderated by and controlled by one supplier. Funding this was might prove difficult if membership reduces the number of forum members and it becomes a talking shop for a small number of members unless Justin wants to keep funding it from his pocket (which I doubt in the long term).

I keep looking at the chart above and the majority view (albeit 13 votes) is for 'someone else to foot the bill, not me' and this is translated into Sponsorship/ Advertising which doesn't sit comfortably with the Forum administrators.

Something, I think, will have to give - either suppliers/ advertising fills the void or membership becomes closed and membership is affected (similar to what Ian talks about with the classic car club).

I'm sure this topic will run and run until someone make an executive decision on how to fund it. You can't please everyone all the time...

accdave

05-12-2010, 09:21 PM

Martin I would imagine in some ways this is a similar decision trade suppliers like yourself have when deciding to display open pricing or registered businesses only. Personally I would rather you didn't, as you say you can't please everybody :D

Justin

05-12-2010, 09:24 PM

it becomes a talking shop for a small number of members unless Justin wants to keep funding it from his pocket (which I doubt in the long term)...
That is a concern yes.

I keep looking at the chart above and the majority view (albeit 13 votes) is for 'someone else to foot the bill, not me' and this is translated into Sponsorship/ Advertising which doesn't sit comfortably with the Forum administrators.
I've tried to be open and fair and always throw things out for discussion but out of 450 members only 38 bother to vote!

I'm sure this topic will run and run until someone make an executive decision on how to fund it. You can't please everyone all the time...

OK, decision for now is that I will carry on paying for it and won't be charging membership. Donations will still be greatly appreciated and I still welcome suggestions and ideas but it's obvious we won't please all members whatever happens. I take the point about experienced members giving advice to newcomers/competitors, personally I have no issue with this...friends close, enemies closer...but I can understand how some members would be concerned.

The forum isn't run as a business and at this stage I have no intention of doing so. I run it because I enjoy doing so and want to give something back to the industry. I feel that we're pushing the boundaries with members testing different printers and maybe one day our voices will be heard by those that can do something with these tests.

Not much more to say at this point, I don't think the debate needs to continue as we're going around in circles.

AdamB

05-12-2010, 09:43 PM

Well, this has got some interesting reading in it I must say.

I am relativley new to the forum, but feel as though I've known everyone for a lot longer as you get to see 'personalities' come through in what they have written (well I do anyway, not sure about anyone else?).

So, after casting my vote at the start I then kind of sat back and read everything that has been posted, different opinions, arguments etc.

I also do this as a business (now) , but started off by trying it out (part-time) ................. everyone has to start somewhere (and learn).

But, my main reason for posting on this 'debate' is regarding Justin's last post .................... that he will "continue to fund it from his own pocket".

I haven't donated .............. yet, as I was waiting on the outcome of this subject - but I know 100% that I WILL DONATE now, whether it's the odd fiver here when I get some cash in or a couple of quid ................. I wouldn't have it if it wasn't for this forum - and for now, it's paid for by HIM not us, so it's an effort I can make and will be happy to do so!

................ now, where's that donate button?

jennywren

06-12-2010, 07:46 PM

My daughter ran a forum, army wife's something like like and it was funded through selling mugs , embroider shirts, etc and it seem to tick. But no doubt it will contravene some bloody rule or other, there is no right answer, but one that has to be decide by you and you alone as its your baby. I suspect like most people we like the forum but have no or a small idea of the politics that go with the responsibility of running a forum, or the rules that allow or don't you allow to charge for various things, I don't think its not a lack of not interested in, or which way we want it to go, simply we don't understand the nitty gritty of what is required and how to go about suggest things. I believe that many members would like to suggest things but are afraid their ideas are not good enough or know how to put in to words. Or we leave it to those you feel strong opinions about it to decide. But either way its the person that who owns it has the final word and who knows which way he would like it to go, Maybe now is the time to do what ever you feel needs doing, What ever you do is fine by me and those members that feel this way can add their post which agrees. Not everybody wants to have a heavy debate but would back you on whatever you decide. I believe most members do .

mrs maggot

10-02-2011, 05:37 PM

i would happily pay (and have) £5 per year for the services of the forum, I would like to see an area for people who do this as their main business - not as a hobby to pay the extra bills, i am really not enjoying seeing the "begging bowl" out at the top of the forum every month, surely by now we need you show us what your costs are for the year, hosting and running the forum. then i would have an idea if my £5 was enough. i know what my hosting fees and domain name fees are, but yours maybe different.

Yes i would like to see a seperate area, one for members, but i would like that to also be for professional members who do this for a paid living (ie fill out a tax form every year) so we are not helping some of those who are taking the work from us - but i know thats a debate for another time

smitch6

10-02-2011, 05:46 PM

i'm trying to do this for a living lol
but so far its not quite going that way
i suppose once i get the help from you guys on here it will improve

i would happily pay for the use of this place

but i can also see it from other views
i run a free forum and my aim was always to have it free
i ask for donations and i bet my costs are prob more than this place but thats by choice

for the 1st 18months i had to pay for everything myself
but in the last 6mths or so the forum has paid for itself and started earning me around £20 a month :D

i think maybe have it free for anyone to join but have a premium section as well for those who want to pay for the privilige

i suppose thats where the problems start tho
as some ppl only want to help ppl who do it as a living not a hobby
which is fine, but how many ppl turn their hobby into a business????????? lots

i'm happy to help out in any way i can which is what i have found from everyone on here so far :)

DREAMGLASS

10-02-2011, 09:38 PM

When I first got into sublimation, I was self taught by watching YouTube videos, reading non forum articles and reading technical guidelines on suppliers pages. The missing gaps I learnt from experimentation on my own initiative and learning from mistakes.

A lot of people come onto this forum and expect every question to be answered for them, without even being bothered to look for the solution themselves first. That's not a personal attack on anybody, just a critique on how this forum is evolving. Some of those folks have the ethos of I'll go out and buy the equipment and be totally dependant on other people to show my how to set it all up so I can set up in possible competition against the very people that are helping me. In that context I can see where John G and others are coming from.

At the other end of the scale, it may be that some folks are only running their ventures part time with a view to eventually developing a full time business, likewise there are also 'beer money' folks that don't want to commit to sublimation other than for casual income, for a whole variety of legitimate reasons, such as health, mobility and other commitments. Let's face it, if folks are say only doing mugs, an a4 printer and a mug press are going to fit onto even the smallest kitchen table, so absolutely no need for commercial premises. As to undercutting on prices, some folks have little business sense and whether they run a full time professional business, or operate on a casual part time basis, if they want to work for minimal profit, then I for one am happy to leave them to it.

Some people come into sublimation expecting to make an easy fortune, but there are other ventures that will make you a lot more money than printing up tees and mugs ever will.

Ian M

10-02-2011, 09:55 PM

I have to agree all the way with Dreamglass as I started just the same way by being self taught etc.

I like so many others will always try to help someone who is having problems etc but, there have been a couple of people on here who can't be bothered to reply to your PM even just to say thank you. Straight away you know they are only here just to find out certain things & off they go never to be seen again.

I think after a little time on here we all get to know who are the regulars & it doesn't take long to realise who are the ones who just use us for their own gain.

Ian

smitch6

10-02-2011, 10:04 PM

i can understand your views chaps
but......... (there's always a but isn't there lol)
the forums are usually called 'support' forums.

but yes i also hear what your saying though about how ppl just come on get and answer and never been seen again

i know my form i have over 200 members
but prob about 30 visit regularly
the rest, some i've never seen on there, the others just come on when they need help/pray etc

but hey thats what forums are like unfortunately

mrs maggot

10-02-2011, 10:17 PM

but hey thats what forums are like unfortunately

especially those open to all with no closed section to it lol

smitch6

10-02-2011, 10:21 PM

at least this place doesn't seem to get spammed that much

unless the staff do a brill job :)

i get around 5 ppl a week minimum joining my forum
but i use stop spam forum, you join and then get a key
enter it into the module that you install on your forum and any user it checks and lets you know if they are on their register or not
so far it has caught every single on thats tried to join

not bad for a free site either

DREAMGLASS

10-02-2011, 10:22 PM

the forums are usually called 'support' forums.
Support yes, carrying because folks are too lazy to walk no.

Paul

10-02-2011, 10:43 PM

at least this place doesn't seem to get spammed that much

unless the staff do a brill job :)

We have some spam on here too ;) but members doing great job and raporting it very quickly :)

John G

10-02-2011, 10:49 PM

:wink:There was spam printed on a t'shirt the other day - does that count

Justin

10-02-2011, 11:06 PM

We have some spam on here too ;) but members doing great job and raporting it very quickly :)

That's a new one on me, when did we last get spam on here???

Paul

10-02-2011, 11:09 PM

long time a go but it was raported and removed...

Justin

10-02-2011, 11:13 PM

That's ok then, certainly shouldn't have been any at all in recent months. Probably down to 1 or 2 spam members a week now but I stop these with the moderation,

Andrew

11-02-2011, 09:15 AM

I don't spend half as much time on here lately as it's continuously the same questions coming up. Like dreamglass says, much of the time it only takes a little research. I just tend to skim over the post titles to see if there is anything interesting being asked or posted. Much of this is due to lack of time as well...... I shouldn't be on here now with the amount of work I have on.

mrs maggot

11-02-2011, 12:29 PM

i find the same on t shirt forums - people join and then ask without reading, a ten minute read would probably leave them with less questions to ask - and when they do ask they would be a bit more informed. perhaps we need at the start of every subforum, ie vinyl/flex whats required, cutter, cutter software, computer, corel draw or similar and then flex, heat press etc. and very useful would be, in the printers section a simple bit about what printer ink (generic terms) can be used for which processes.

John G

11-02-2011, 01:18 PM

I think you've hit the nail on the head - a fair few people ask before reading as they expect instant answers. After they have received the answer, off they go - sometimes never to be heard, or seen, again. :rolleyes:

mrs maggot

11-02-2011, 02:17 PM

another one might be to answer all the colour problems with printers - colour profiles what they are and why you need them, it would be great if you prevent people from posting UNTIL they had read some of the forum

danlad

12-02-2011, 06:08 PM

I think there should be a tutorial section, videos images, really in-depth. You could charge a one off download fee. I love a good vid or really detailed images on a step by step guide. The maker could even collect a small fee per download, and if people keep posting the same question (like me...) you can direct them to the download section.

Just a thought.

Paul

12-02-2011, 06:14 PM

good idea ;) about download/tutorial section. this is in plans for future.

Justin

13-02-2011, 03:39 PM

These are areas we've been looking at, video tutorials, FAQ's etc. There are already a lot of very good videos around so it seems a little daft to re-invent the wheel. I may approach some of the companies who have these vids with a view to sharing. I could have a go myself but time is just too limited at the moment. I have been thinking FAQ's in each section may be a good start to help reduce the number of repeated threads.