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AJLA
14-10-2010, 10:39 AM
My D88 won't print and the ink and maintenance lights are flashing. I have seen threads (on another forum previously) about how to overcome this. T CIS is full of ink but maybe I need to find the maintenance pads?
Typical, I have a good order due for tomorrow :cry:

JSR
14-10-2010, 11:23 AM
Try the SSC utility - http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml

The lights flash to indicate a certain amount of ink in the waste pads. Resetting the count without replacing the pads can lead to the waste ink overflowing out of the printer. Overflowing ink could, at best, ruin your carpet but, at worst, could short out the printer.

The counter is usually conservative so you'll probably be alright for a little bit but I wouldn't push it too far. You may or may not be able to replace the pads yourself.

Use at your own risk (and don't put the printer on your best furniture or over your expensive carpet!).

AJLA
14-10-2010, 11:38 AM
Thanks JSR, we replace the maintenance tanks in our wide format ouselves and also reset them by pressing a series of buttons in a particular sequence.

I have downloaded the SSC utility with the intention of re setting it until such a time we can find the pads and clean or replace (which looks more difficult as its much smaller.) The SSC utility tells me to remove the chip. Presumably the ones on the adapted cartridges. If so I can't even get them out of the printer as normall they won't budge.

AJLA
14-10-2010, 11:58 AM
The SSC utility is also asking if I want to reset the inks but it's showing the original ink numbers. If I can get the cartridges out that will be ok just to select each ink colour to be reset, I think.

JSR
14-10-2010, 12:58 PM
I haven't used it on the D88 and it doesn't support my B40W yet but I seem to recall on the old 1290S that it was just a case of click "reset counter".

It shouldn't have anything to do with chips on the inks because it's the maintenance waste tank you're resetting. But, as I say, I know nothing about the D88.

AJLA
14-10-2010, 01:34 PM
Unfortunately we have clicked the reset button with no joy, sorry my post was a bit misleading and i'm getting all muddled.

I was referring to the chips on the inks because the inks are also saying no ink. Have reset this also, checked there is no air in the cartridges etc but that light still flashes.

Re the maintenance light flashing I was wondering where the chip was on the maintenance tank or if i could remove it. Have been searching in google for a few hours now but no joy. :cry: :cry:

JSR
14-10-2010, 03:28 PM
I was referring to the chips on the inks because the inks are also saying no ink. Have reset this also, checked there is no air in the cartridges etc but that light still flashes.
I had to figure this out with my new B40W this week. I'm using refillables. The cartridges don't auto-reset when running low, the printer driver just throws up an error of "unrecognised ink cartridge". However, taken the cartridge out and putting it back in then seems to reset the chip because the driver then believes I've just put in a new cartridge and recognises it just fine.

I've no idea if that helps your D88. I'm sure someone around here must have a D88 and can offer some advice.


Re the maintenance light flashing I was wondering where the chip was on the maintenance tank or if i could remove it. Have been searching in google for a few hours now but no joy. :cry: :cry:
I'm not aware of any chip on a maintenance tank. I thought it was just a counter value stored somewhere that the SSC could reset. Again, with luck, someone with a D88 will reply to this thread and help you out.

bms
14-10-2010, 06:08 PM
Once you've installed the SSC then open the program and click on the X in the right hand corner. You'll now see a new icon on the tray in the bottom right of your computer.

Right hand click on this icon and a menu will pop up and one of these is to reset the Protection Counter. You'll be asked if you've replaced the waste ink pad (just say yes) and it will tell you the waste pad counter has been reset. This works most of the time, but not always. You may need to switch off/ on the printer and/or reboot the printer.

As for the B40W - the reset software is available, but closely guarded by the Epson service centres. We've just had a B40W reset and they don't worry about the type of ink used, they just charge £15 to reset the waste pad and within 1/2 hour it all back and working.

JSR
14-10-2010, 06:46 PM
As for the B40W - the reset software is available, but closely guarded by the Epson service centres. We've just had a B40W reset and they don't worry about the type of ink used, they just charge £15 to reset the waste pad and within 1/2 hour it all back and working.
Is that £15 just to perform the reset? What would they charge if they replaced the waste pads, too, I wonder. The last time I phoned Epson about an issue (it was concerning an Aculaser), they said it'd cost £140+VAT. Given that a brand new printer only cost £189 at the time, I had no alternative but to chuck the old one and buy a new one.

Presumably they "closely guard" the secret of resets in order to encourage this environment of disposable printers.

We're constantly being bombarded with messages about saving the planet, being environmentally aware, and not filling up landfills - yet companies put stumbling blocks in the way that encourage just tossing the printer and buying a new one. You couldn't make this stuff up if it was a comedy.

bms
14-10-2010, 07:07 PM
Is that £15 just to perform the reset? What would they charge if they replaced the waste pads, too, I wonder.

Yes just to reset, but I've known a reset on older printers to be done several times so there's no need to replace the waste pads all the time.

JSR
14-10-2010, 07:45 PM
Is that £15 just to perform the reset? What would they charge if they replaced the waste pads, too, I wonder.

Yes just to reset, but I've known a reset on older printers to be done several times so there's no need to replace the waste pads all the time.
I took apart a 1290 once (I was scrapping the printer anyway). I'd estimate that it was just a little bit more than a third saturated. Possibly more than that. It's a bit deceptive because the waste pad consisted of three layers of sponge-like material, intended to drag the waste ink to the lowest sponge. The top two sponges didn't seem all that saturated, but the bottom one was like a wet rag.

Ideally, the printer should have a replaceable (or empty-able) waste tank. If only someone made a printer especially for dye-subbers, then we wouldn't be held to ransom every time we want to reset it... ;)

Paul
14-10-2010, 08:15 PM
DIY :) but it may be something you looking for :)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/R285-R265-RX560-P ... 588a05562e (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/R285-R265-RX560-PX800FW-STYLUS-1400-2100-WASTE-INK-TANK-/380272727598?pt=UK_CamerasPhoto_Printers_Printers_ JN&hash=item588a05562e)

bms
14-10-2010, 08:25 PM
Ideally, the printer should have a replaceable (or empty-able) waste tank.

This is very much the case on the larger format printers as the waste tanks are plastic canisters which simply hold ink and can be removed, emptied and, if you have a chip resetter, then you can reset the waste tank to empty.

With A4/ A3 printers they probably do not have such heavy use (in normal circumstances) to warrant the extra cost of this component being replaceable. In all the years we've been using Epson printers as well as selling normal ink cartridges (around 15 years) then I can't recall a single instance when the waste pad was actually in need of being replaced, even if the printer 'thought' it needed replacing.

JSR
14-10-2010, 11:47 PM
Ideally, the printer should have a replaceable (or empty-able) waste tank.

This is very much the case on the larger format printers as the waste tanks are plastic canisters which simply hold ink and can be removed, emptied and, if you have a chip resetter, then you can reset the waste tank to empty.

With A4/ A3 printers they probably do not have such heavy use (in normal circumstances) to warrant the extra cost of this component being replaceable. In all the years we've been using Epson printers as well as selling normal ink cartridges (around 15 years) then I can't recall a single instance when the waste pad was actually in need of being replaced, even if the printer 'thought' it needed replacing.
Presumably because the printer failed first? :lol:

I recall Epson's claim 10-15 years ago that their printheads lasted for "life" - by which they meant the "life of the printer". But this facility of it to lock up and stop printing when some arbitrary counter is reached is presumably when they consider the printer's life has come to an end.

Looking at the future, I'm wondering if dye-sublimation will move to keep up with technology or if it will stay where it is. Today, I can wirelessly print to my HP printer on my iPod Touch, I can wirelessly print to my Brother printer on my smartphone, I can even wirelessly scan from my Brother scanner to my smartphone. None of this needs a computer. But I'm tied to the computer to print dye-sub because we're still limited to using someone else's printer for the ink, and so we're tied to our desktops by ICC profiles and Powerdrivers.

If we had a dedicated printer, they could develop an app and we could print direct from our phones or other mobile devices without needing to go back to the computer. Isn't that the future? Doing nothing except waiting for someone else to release a printer before going through the age of waiting for ICC profiles etc, is fast looking like being stuck in the Dark Ages of technology.

JSR
14-10-2010, 11:49 PM
DIY :) but it may be something you looking for :)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/R285-R265-RX560-P ... 588a05562e (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/R285-R265-RX560-PX800FW-STYLUS-1400-2100-WASTE-INK-TANK-/380272727598?pt=UK_CamerasPhoto_Printers_Printers_ JN&hash=item588a05562e)
I looked at something like that when I got my R1800. The procedure looked far too convoluted and tricky to pull off.

Most instructions for these things tend to be close-up photos about an inch square so you can't see a blind thing that you're supposed to be doing. :lol:

bms
15-10-2010, 12:04 PM
Possily slightly out of my depth here, but is there a photoshop app for the itouch/ iphone and the B40W is a wireless printer so aren't we there?

JSR
15-10-2010, 12:12 PM
Possily slightly out of my depth here, but is there a photoshop app for the itouch/ iphone and the B40W is a wireless printer so aren't we there?
There's a lightweight Photoshop app for altering photos, but it's not a printing app. In order to print with dye-sub ink you either need the ICC profile or a dedicated app from Sawgrass, and mobile devices generally don't handle ICC profiles.

The printing apps that are available are, effectively, wireless equivalents of Pictbridge. With some printers you can plug your camera straight into the printer's USB port and print - because the printer knows what inks it has in it. As soon as you change the ink, you need to involved the ICC profile - mobile devices aren't that flexible, and it immediately rules out anything like Pictbridge.

If there was a printer designed to run with Artanium inks (and not just a printer using third party inks) then half the job would be done.

There are some printing apps that print via a host program on your computer, but that defeats the object. I just think how great it would be if you get a photo on your phone and you send it straight to the printer. How good would that be?

I can already use my phone to log-in to my website via FTP, download the customer's photo, tidy it up on my smartphone, and print it as a regular photo. I just can't do the dye-sub bit because of this stumbling block of using third party inks in the printer.

Also, on a side note, Epson aren't as forthcoming with printing from mobile devices as, say, HP and Brother are. There is an Epson print app but it's for an incredibly restricted line of printers - none of which are the ones we use.

AJLA
15-10-2010, 12:54 PM
Thank you both very much for your help, having used SSC utilitlity and re setting counters without success, as I was using the "Reset counters" button which then told me to use the "freeze" facility and still no joy :( The one place I didn't even look was
The Protection Counter area due to the big red cross, I followed the instructions and at last the flashing lights have stopped. :D
Unfortunately I must have knocked one of the tubes out of it's cartridge whilst manhandling it yesterday so it has taken a while to draw out the air and get rid of any bubbles in the tube.

Back up and running now thanks to you two :D :D

Well worth my small donation/ contribution to keep this forum going, where would I have been without it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DREAMGLASS
16-10-2010, 10:36 AM
I tend to be cynical when it comes to Epson printers. On one of the models that told me my ink cartridge was empty, I actually dismantled the cartridge and it was still a third full of ink. On my A3 Epson, it indicated the waste tank/pad was full, upon close inspection it wasn't, but was easily reset via the SCC utility.

I tend to view Epson printers as a disposable commodity and buy more than one of models that are near to the end of their production runs. Two Epson A3+ formats at £99 each, two D92's at £18 each. At those prices I wouldn't even contemplate any repairs, as simply not worth the hassles of dealing with indifferent repair folks. Especially when you've thrown the genuine Epson cartridges away and fitted a non standard ink setup.

bms
16-10-2010, 01:24 PM
On one of the models that told me my ink cartridge was empty, I actually dismantled the cartridge and it was still a third full of ink

Which?, the consumer magazine, ran some tests a few years ago and found that an Epson cartridge could hold up to 38% of it's ink when the chip reported it as being empty :o

JSR
16-10-2010, 02:53 PM
On one of the models that told me my ink cartridge was empty, I actually dismantled the cartridge and it was still a third full of ink
Which?, the consumer magazine, ran some tests a few years ago and found that an Epson cartridge could hold up to 38% of it's ink when the chip reported it as being empty :o
These tests were done by many different organisations, mostly during the time of multi-colour cartridges - like the 5 colour cartridge in the old 1290.

One particularly test was done against the Picturemate, which had an all-in-one 6-ink cartridge. These results caused such a stir in the US that a class-action suit was made against Epson.

The trouble is that these figures don't tell the whole story.

Epson cartridges were always intended to have some ink remaining in them because of the problem of drying/clogging printheads. Yes, Epson could let you use all of the ink - but if that resulting in destroying the printhead so you throwaway the printer, was it really worth using that last bit of ink?

Some tests were done on single-ink cartridges which proved this. A cartridge that's said to contain 11ml of ink actually contained 13ml of ink. The 11ml claim was of "usable ink", not physical ink. You always got to use what you paid for. What's left is excess to preserve the printhead - not waste that you paid for.

People who read the Which? type tests complained that ink was being wasted, with the most common outburst being "I paid for the ink, I should be able to use it!" But that's not the case. You're paying for 11ml of ink. If the cartridge has 2-3ml more ink in it to save the printhead, then it's not usable ink. You're only paying for 11ml, not 13-14ml.

The Picturemate case brought it all to a head because, when one colour ran out, all the other colours still had significant ink left. That's where the 38% figure came from.

The thing is that that doesn't tell the whole story either. The Picturemate cartridge was intended to produce 100 prints - that's why it was sold with 100 sheets of paper. In the real world, you would easily get 135 pictures (you'd have to buy extra paper). That's 35% *more* prints than intended. And, even after that, you can still print more. You're getting what you paid for - more than what you paid for, regardless of how much ink might be left afterwards.

I did my own tests on a Picturemate and tended to get around 150 prints before the cartridge registered empty. Yes, there was still ink left in the other colours (that agreed with the 38% wasteage figure) but I was getting 50% more prints than I'd bought anyway, so what had I lost? Nothing.

People are very quick to jump on Epson because there's some ink left in the cartridge, but the argument does not stand up to examination. You always get to use what was intended, you always get what you paid for, and often you get more than what you pay for. So what if there's ink left over? That's intended to preserve the printhead, not to print with.

JSR
16-10-2010, 02:54 PM
Two Epson A3+ formats at £99 each, two D92's at £18 each. At those prices I wouldn't even contemplate any repairs, as simply not worth the hassles of dealing with indifferent repair folks.
Where did you buy the printers from at that price? I'm sure we'd all like to know.

DREAMGLASS
16-10-2010, 07:56 PM
People are very quick to jump on Epson because there's some ink left in the cartridge, but the argument does not stand up to examination. You always get to use what was intended, you always get what you paid for, and often you get more than what you pay for. So what if there's ink left over? That's intended to preserve the printhead, not to print with.
Where it became a problem is when those printer manufacturers were quoting a price per copy based on the full capacity of an ink cartridge which could never be achieved. Which and the other consumer organisations quickly picked up on that sort of outright deception.

Incidentally Epson were the ones trying to make it illegal for people trying to sell refillable cartridges for their printers in the States but not surprisingly bulk systems. A move that would be unlikely to succeed in European courts. People use refillable cartridges for a whole variety of alternative ink needs, including sublimation, photographic, uv sensitised and even dtg inks. Epson don't sell inks for those specialised markets. It was also Epson that prevented sale of parts for their pro range of printers to be sold anymore. These now have to be fitted directly by Epson at a far higher cost than before.

It is not just Epson whose credentials are open to question. PC World about six years ago were selling a printer from another mainstream manufacturer at a regular price of £22. The replacement cartridges were over £29 so people were just junking the printer when it ran out of ink and buying a brand new printer. Crazy but true. :shock:



Where did you buy the printers from at that price? I'm sure we'd all like to know.
When a new model is brought out, all printer manufacturers sell off the old models cheaply to clear them. Usually to the big 'box shifters'. Surprisingly Amazon and Tesco have deals that can't be beaten with clearance lines. :)

JSR
17-10-2010, 12:21 AM
Where it became a problem is when those printer manufacturers were quoting a price per copy based on the full capacity of an ink cartridge which could never be achieved. Which and the other consumer organisations quickly picked up on that sort of outright deception.
Do you have a link to this problem? At the time of the issue in question, Epson were printing a "ml" quantity on their cartridges. People who opened up new cartridges found that there were approximately 2ml more of ink in the cartridge than that quoted on the side of the box. I don't recall manufacturers quoting a "price per copy" because the price depends on the type of print, the price of the cartridge, and the amount of ink used on the print. As I recall, all manufacturers ever tended to do was quote a number of pages at 5% coverage, which had no real relationship to real world printing but it wasn't inaccurate.


Incidentally Epson were the ones trying to make it illegal for people trying to sell refillable cartridges for their printers in the States but not surprisingly bulk systems. A move that would be unlikely to succeed in European courts. People use refillable cartridges for a whole variety of alternative ink needs, including sublimation, photographic, uv sensitised and even dtg inks. Epson don't sell inks for those specialised markets. It was also Epson that prevented sale of parts for their pro range of printers to be sold anymore. These now have to be fitted directly by Epson at a far higher cost than before.
I'm no defender of Epson's practices and they do need to be called into question with unfairness such as their desire for ever decreasing size of ink cartridges (the smaller they are, the more often you change, and the more that gets wasted from the other cartridges), and their habit of redefining "standard" cartridges as "high capacity" ones just so they can call half-filled thimble cartridges "standard" rather than "low capacity". I just feel we need to be clear where there is wrong-doing and where there isn't.

I recall one website (a supplier of dye-sub photo printers) that were on a crusade against Epson and used the "38% wasted" report to justify their own dye-sub printers. Their argument was that you get a fixed page price with a dye sub, but an Epson Picturemate wastes over a third of the ink. They failed to point out that the "fixed page" print price from the dye-sub was 29p for a 6x4, while the "wasted ink" print price from a Picturemate was 12.5p. This is largely the reason it annoys me when people just put down the "38% wasted ink" headline without actually going into what it means. At the time that Picturemates were "wasting 38%" of their ink, 12.5p was a pretty good price for a 6"x4" photo that would last for 100 years. Unfortunately, the class action suit in the US led Epson to dumping the really good Picturemates and releasing inferior models instead, just so they wouldn't get sued again. Today, the price per print from a Picturemate is more expensive - but at least they don't waste as much ink. :roll: I'm not entirely sure that we (the consumer) won that battle.

The sad thing is that colour laser printers are now sold under the same pricing model as inkjets, leading to some lasers costing more than some inkjets in page cost. All manufacturers are guilty of that, including Epson.


It is not just Epson whose credentials are open to question. PC World about six years ago were selling a printer from another mainstream manufacturer at a regular price of £22. The replacement cartridges were over £29 so people were just junking the printer when it ran out of ink and buying a brand new printer. Crazy but true. :shock:
I believe it was PC World who sold Lexmark printers for £29 (the first printer below £30, they claimed). Yet, when people got it home they found it only came with a tri-colour cartridge. To print black, you had to go back to the shop and spend another £35 on a black ink cartridge. Suddenly the £29 printer price wasn't so cheap.

On the non-Epson front, I recall a website that took HP and Lexmark cartridges and disassembled them. The cartridges themselves look massive, but when opened you could see the very tiny space that contained the tiniest amount of ink. You think you're buying a big cartridge, but you have a tiny amount of ink and a lot of air.

Manufacturers play all these kinds of tricks. Like there was a time when the argument was that Epson cartridges were too expensive because they were twice the price of Canon cartridges - but no one thought to look that Epson cartridges had 10-14ml of ink in them while the "half the price" Canon ones held just 3-5ml of ink. Of course they were half the price, but the cost-per-ml (and cost per print) was significantly higher. This ultimately resulted in Epson selling half-filled cartridges with less ink in them, just so they could challenge their rivals on "price per cartridge".

No wonder the consumer never knows which is the best printer, or brand, to buy.

Most of these things that we've both mentioned are certainly wrong but, it seems, all that comes from it is an even worse deal for the end user. We (the consumer) achieved nothing from the "38% wasted ink" lawsuit. We (the consumer) achieved nothing from the "half-price Canon cartridge" argument. The situation for us just got worse, not better.


When a new model is brought out, all printer manufacturers sell off the old models cheaply to clear them. Usually to the big 'box shifters'. Surprisingly Amazon and Tesco have deals that can't be beaten with clearance lines. :)
I hadn't thought of Tesco, but I'm sure I would have seen them if they were on Amazon. I'll have to pay more attention. I quite like the idea of a £99 A3 printer...

DREAMGLASS
17-10-2010, 10:18 AM
The ink wastage on cartridges is not really an issue for me as such, as I don't buy any printers unless either refillable cartridges or bulk feeds with auto reset chips are available for that model. I did used to own a big Epson 3000 and that used to annoy me when one of the cartridges regularly used to run out halfway through printing up a big piece of art canvas, as it effectively used to mean scrapping the canvas.

Perhaps my biggest irritation with printer manufacturers in general, is when they moved up to silly numbers of cartridges in their printers. I defy the average person in the street to tell the difference between the output from a four cartridge printer and an eight cartridge printer. :? Many of the big Giclee art printers used by professional studios only use four ink colours.

When you start fitting multiple cartridges into a smaller format printer, you have to reduce the ink capacities not just to get them all fitted into a confined space, but also to reduce the weight on the printhead carriage mechanism. Most smaller printers are built to a price and are nothing as like as robust as their bigger brothers. I have a big Epson 9600 series and it is built like a tank. :) Get a lot of small capacity ink cartridges in a small printer and it is inevitable that you'll always have one that is about to run out. That is both frustrating and inconvenient for owners, to mention nothing of the time wasted in replacing cartridges and ordering new ones.

I'd have been happy for printer manufacturers to produce a well built four colour printer, with decent sized ink tanks aimed at business use. A plain, no frills workhorse.

JSR
17-10-2010, 06:30 PM
Perhaps my biggest irritation with printer manufacturers in general, is when they moved up to silly numbers of cartridges in their printers. I defy the average person in the street to tell the difference between the output from a four cartridge printer and an eight cartridge printer. :? Many of the big Giclee art printers used by professional studios only use four ink colours.
In some cases, the additional inks served a purpose. For example, pigment inks used to have quite a small colour gamut compared to dye inks. To solve the problem, Epson reduced the droplet size to 1.5pl and added Red and Blue inks to strengthen the gamut in the red and blue areas - that was the R800/1800 printers. In another instance, they kept with the "light" colour inks so they could keep the droplet size larger and used three shades of black for superior mono printing.


When you start fitting multiple cartridges into a smaller format printer, you have to reduce the ink capacities not just to get them all fitted into a confined space, but also to reduce the weight on the printhead carriage mechanism. Most smaller printers are built to a price and are nothing as like as robust as their bigger brothers.
I do wish that Epson would produce desktop printers with fixed-position ink tanks. I don't see why they can't do it. My A3 Brother AIO (that costs less than the Epson B1100) has fixed-position ink cartridges of a reasonable size. My previous A4 version had fixed-position ink cartridges, as does my HP Officejet, and a previous Picturemate.

If Epson adopted the same practice, it'd sure save us the trouble of having CISS cables wopping about all over the place.


I have a big Epson 9600 series and it is built like a tank. :) Get a lot of small capacity ink cartridges in a small printer and it is inevitable that you'll always have one that is about to run out. That is both frustrating and inconvenient for owners, to mention nothing of the time wasted in replacing cartridges and ordering new ones.
Yes, that's the whole issue with moving from multi-ink cartridges to single-ink cartridges. It sounds good on paper because, it's alleged, there's less wasted ink, but the printer pretty much spends its life always telling you that one is empty. This is true even with my HP Officejet that has, comparatively speaking, large ink tanks (59ml black,17ml colours). If that kind of printer flashes "ink low" in perpetuity, then printers with 7ml ink cartridges have no chance.


I'd have been happy for printer manufacturers to produce a well built four colour printer, with decent sized ink tanks aimed at business use. A plain, no frills workhorse.
That's one of the reasons I haven't replaced my HP. The large tanks mean it is cheaper to run than a laser (particularly mono printing). It has two paper trays, and built-in duplex, and it's fast (compared to other printers I have). I've been watching HP's printers to see if there's a modern model that runs just as cheap, and there just isn't. All printer manufacturers are as bad as each other.

DREAMGLASS
17-10-2010, 06:53 PM
I do wish that Epson would produce desktop printers with fixed-position ink tanks. I don't see why they can't do it. My A3 Brother AIO (that costs less than the Epson B1100) has fixed-position ink cartridges of a reasonable size. My previous A4 version had fixed-position ink cartridges, as does my HP Officejet, and a previous Picturemate.

If Epson adopted the same practice, it'd sure save us the trouble of having CISS cables wopping about all over the place.
The Epson 3000 I used to own had fixed position ink cartridges of large capacity, so the technology is within their capabilities


All printer manufacturers are as bad as each other.
Aint that the truth.