View Full Version : He ain't Epson, he's my Brother...
Has anyone tried using Brother printers for dye-sublimation?
It seems odd that Sawgrass only support some Epson and Ricoh printers. Epson printers, with their tiny ink tanks, require the fitting of a CISS with great ink tubes flapping away all over the place.
Brother printers, like the Ricoh, have their inks remotely mounted. The printers are invariably cheaper than Epsons (my MFC-5890CN cost about the same as a B1100 but it comes complete with scanner, card reader, colour screen, fax and all manner of other things).
Also, there are third-party refillable cartridges for some Brother printers (such as my MFC-5890CN) that can hold 80ml of ink (not the tiddly 9ml of Epson printers). A printer with remote-mounted 80ml cartridges would do away with any need for the square-peg-in-round-hole nature of a CISS.
Oh, yes, and before you ask, I've just had confirmation back to an enquiry I sent to Brother - and they replied: "Our inkjet machines use the piezo type of printhead." So the printhead is the same type that's used on Epson printers.
There seems no logical reason why Brother printers should be ignored. Does anyone know if any tests have been done on Brother printers and if there's a reason why they're not used for dye-sublimation?
Justin
23-11-2010, 07:55 PM
Something Paul was going to look at....any updates Paul ;)
not yet :) but after couple of PM's with Jonathan am definetly going to try that :)
Justin
23-11-2010, 09:44 PM
Good on ya Paul, expect a review pretty soon! ;) Always pushing the boundaries eh?!
Ian M
23-11-2010, 09:59 PM
I'm getting all excited & giddy now.........hehe :lol:
Oh by the way Epson have now replaced the S21 with the S22 which looks a bit like a D120.
Ian :D
Justin
23-11-2010, 10:10 PM
Oh by the way Epson have now replaced the S21 with the S22 which looks a bit like a D120.
Ian :D
At around £35 inc. vat it looks like a decent printer, hopefully better build quality than the S21.
Does anyone know if any tests have been done on Brother printers and if there's a reason why they're not used for dye-sublimation?
I think you'll find that the Brother printers will work and you can probably profile them as well. I believe Sawgrass have tested these and offer the reason for not supporting these as the entry level Epson printers - build quality and reliability. No doubt there will be discussion about the rights and wrongs of this, but that's where this stands as far as Sawgrass is concerned.
Does anyone know if any tests have been done on Brother printers and if there's a reason why they're not used for dye-sublimation?
I think you'll find that the Brother printers will work and you can probably profile them as well. I believe Sawgrass have tested these and offer the reason for not supporting these as the entry level Epson printers - build quality and reliability. No doubt there will be discussion about the rights and wrongs of this, but that's where this stands as far as Sawgrass is concerned.
Forgive me if I'm being a bit naive, but it strikes me that "supported by Sawgrass" comes down to just providing a profile. It's up to the end user if they want to use the printer as there are plenty of refill cartridges around.
I don't see what the stumbling block is. It's not like Sawgrass are responsible for the printer or anything like that. If "build quality and reliablity" was the issue then Sawgrass wouldn't support any desktop printer (but then, their patent only applies to desktop printers so they kind of have to).
I don't see other third-party ink manufacturers, for instance Jettec, saying "sorry, we're not selling ink for Brother printers due to build quality and reliability".
From an end-user's perspective, it's difficult to understand their reasoning.
Don't shoot the messenger :)
Don't shoot the messenger :)
I'm not blaming the suppliers. You can only deal with what you're given. I think that's understood by everyone.
I can't help but feel that, if there was more competition in the marketplace, the end user would have more options.
Looking at it from the manufacturers and the distributors point of view, more printers to support means greater complexity and more support issues. In an ideal world, I'd prefer just the one printer for sublimation printing, that worked and didn't require too much support, but at the other extreme I wouldn't want an endless supply of printers to try to support that each had it's own querks/problems/issues and different ink supply systems. Stocking all these permutations would be confusing (as well as expensive!).
I can see the point of view of Sawgrass that they want a couple of supported platforms in the A4 and A3 market just in case one manufacturer changes the model/ cartridges (whatever) and then there is always continuing of supply of an A4/ A3 printer platform whilst tests are conducted on new models coming to the market.
I can also see the point of view being expressed in various threads looking to get a cheap(er) printer and cheap(er) inks/ printing. Rolling this logic forward could result in a dramatic reduction in the profitability of the sector. Not sure how many people read Michael Porter and know of his Five Forces but these are about competitive advantage - enabling you guys to sell at the price you do to make the profits you want. Such competitive advantage is achieved, amogst others, by preventing the entry of new competition and a barrier to entry of new competition is the set up costs of the business. If cheap(er) printers and cheap(er) inks/ printing were readily available then you would have a huge number of people 'dambling' in the market, reducing prices and the profitability for all - thereby starting a downward spiral in selling prices/ profits.
So I see both points of view - from the manufacturer of the inks/ systems in reducing complexity but this in turn creates barriers to entry as prices are high(er) than if a cheap(er) printer was supported. Likewise I understand why the end users want a cheap(er) route to print to earn profits. A middle ground may be achieved by those that want to experiment with other printers to gain their own knowledge and competitive advantage.
Just my rambling thoughts... :)
Ian M
25-11-2010, 08:46 PM
I have to admit you do make a good point Martin.
Ian :D
I would like to ask what kind of suport we can count on from sawgrass?
In an ideal world, I'd prefer just the one printer for sublimation printing, that worked and didn't require too much support, but at the other extreme I wouldn't want an endless supply of printers to try to support that each had it's own querks/problems/issues and different ink supply systems. Stocking all these permutations would be confusing (as well as expensive!).
but this way every one would have free choose of what printer they want to buy. so you dont have to stock them. you can have couple if you want and promote them.
any way... what kind of warranty do I have? Is that true that if I use sublimation ink in one of my epson I loos warranty? if so. if anything goes wrong etc... will you (as a supplier) fix the printer for me? or will sawgrass do it? Thats what I call support.
If cheap(er) printers and cheap(er) inks/ printing were readily available then you would have a huge number of people 'dambling' in the market, reducing prices and the profitability for all - thereby starting a downward spiral in selling prices/ profits.
and thats why artanium cost £60 per 125ml :) to stop us have a profit :D
Is that true that if I use sublimation ink in one of my epson I loos warranty? if so. if anything goes wrong etc... will you (as a supplier) fix the printer for me? or will sawgrass do it? Thats what I call support.
Evidence suggests the answer to both those questions is "Yes"
Just my rambling thoughts... :)
Well, I'll leave it at that.
Probably unsurprisingly, I have much to say on the subject but, given the unique way in which the desktop dye-sublimation market is set-up, I wouldn't want to risk saying something that might bring down the wrath of our gods vidit herba ;) .
Is that true that if I use sublimation ink in one of my epson I loos warranty? if so. if anything goes wrong etc... will you (as a supplier) fix the printer for me? or will sawgrass do it? Thats what I call support.
Evidence suggests the answer to both those questions is "Yes"
:o :shock: so you and sawgrass can actualy fix printers???
I dont get that :(
so... I can buy lets say B1100 in PC WORLD. convert it in to sublimation printer with artanium inks. if printer broke down I can send it to sawgrass? As they claim that B1100 is "supported printer"
another think is: If sawgrass hold the pattent for desktop printers and they only support few of the epson ones is that mean If I use lets say BROTHER (whitch is not suport) with 3rd party inks I braking the law? r they hold the paptent for not supported printers :ugeek:
so... I can buy lets say B1100 in PC WORLD. convert it in to sublimation printer with artanium inks. if printer broke down I can send it to sawgrass? As they claim that B1100 is "supported printer"
If you buy a printer and ink package from a distributor, and the printer fails because of the ink within the first 12 months, and Epson/ Ricoh will not repair it then my experience has been that Sawgrass will step in - had it once with a Ricoh GX7000. If the manufacturer says it will work, and it doesn't, then you have recourse from the distributor/ Sawgrass.
Same applies to JetTec compatible ink in printers - the manufacturer if the ink guarantees the ink will work and if the printer clogs because of the ink, and the ink is purchased from an authorised distributor, then the manufacturer of the ink will repair/ replace the printer.
If you buy your inks/ printers from other sources apart from the authorised distributors then you may not be covered by such comprehensive support.
I use lets say BROTHER (whitch is not suport) with 3rd party inks I braking the law?
Not sure about the actual legal position, but if you have any problems with the printer then you're on your own. As it's not supported then you try/ use the ink at your own risk. Same applies to any other Epson printer apart from the officially supported models.
hmm. thanks MArtin! I got it now.
but its a bit wired that they only support printer bought of them. pc world or amazon have them too! same printers! most of the time they are much cheaper too :(
but its a bit wired that they only support printer bought of them. pc world or amazon have them too! same printers! more time much cheaper too
Probably because it can get complicated if you buy from a third party - some suppliers do add on quite a premium to the price of the printers which can make it expensive, but I guess their argument is you pay extra for the support.
I was going to stay out of it (honest!), but I'm confused now about how "support" is defined.
but its a bit wired that they only support printer bought of them. pc world or amazon have them too! same printers! more time much cheaper too
Probably because it can get complicated if you buy from a third party - some suppliers do add on quite a premium to the price of the printers which can make it expensive, but I guess their argument is you pay extra for the support.
I must be short-sighted.
In the years since I began doing sublimation, I've never seen a notice on a supplier's website, or on Sawgrass's website, that says "we'll fix your printer if it's bust". However, in the past I have read notices on more than one authorised supplier's website which said "buy your printer from elsewhere, it'll be cheaper" (or words to that effect).
If our printers really are covered, why doesn't anyone say so in giant neon lettering? It would immediately make the super-high cost of the ink justifiable.
Doing a bit of research, I've uncovered this document at http://www.sawgrassink.com/v.php?pg=599 which states -
What we will do:
Provide you, at the discretion of Sawgrass Technologies, with either replacement parts for your existing Bulk Ink System unit, a new Bulk Ink System unit, or at our option, a refurbished Bulk Ink System unit. The exchange is under warranty for the remainder of the original products’ warranty period or 90 days, whichever is longer. The replacement will be shipped to you via ground shipment. Any rush shipments will be freight prepaid.
Limitations of Warranty
THERE ARE NO OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. SAWGRASS SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR LOSS OF PROFIT OR OTHER ECONOMIC LOSS, OR FOR INDIRECT, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR OTHER SIMILAR DAMAGES.
This explicitly states that only the bulk ink system is covered - not the printer.
This document is on the Sawgrass US website. I can't find any such similar document anywhere on the Sawgrass Europe website.
Providing a repair/fix as part of the support is something I would think Sawgrass (and the suppliers) should be shouting about so we all know about it. It would do more to stop people going for cheap printers/cheap ink than saying nothing at all. Chinese whispers isn't very confidence-building.
hmmm... that means Printers arent supported at all really. only ciss systems. in short - there is no such a thing like SUPPORTED printer. so what are we paying for???
this same ciss we can get from ink city express for £35
hmmm... that means Printers arent supported at all really. only ciss systems. in short - there is no such a thing like SUPPORTED printer. so what are we paying for???
There may be a document I haven't found yet. I'm still looking.
In the UK, consumers have certain rights when they buy from a retailer as set out in the Sale of Goods Act (and DSR). That may be a bit woolly when it comes to buying from a non-UK company, however.
However, if you're a business buying from another business, the only real rights you have are any that are in the contract you have with your supplier. The lack of a support document suggests to me that we're not supported, but there may yet be such a document.
I think it would be worth to ask them about it. send them email or something. I got funny feeling that only support we get is ICC profile :(
btw. As you mention before about two this same printers may print different collors with this same profile. So even if sawgrass would swap your printer your prints would not be as good as they used to be. :(
btw. As you mention before about two this same printers may print different collors with this same profile. So even if sawgrass would swap your printer your prints would not be as good as they used to be. :(
That's certainly what I experienced with my two Epson 1400s. The older one produces reasonable prints with the v1 profile, the newer one doesn't. The current v2.5 profile is no good on the older printer, and it's only any good on the newer printer if you desaturate all the colours before printing (and even then, it's not a patch on what I print now with the home-made profile).
However, Martin did say that the support only applies in the first 12 months. My printers are some three years apart, and something could have changed in that time. That's less likely to happen in 12 months.
One thought is nagging at me, though. If we're supposed to buy the printers from the authorised Sawgrass distributors, why don't those suppliers profile up each individual printer before sending it to the end-user? Each printer could be supplied with a printer-specific profile, and there would never be any issues with the inaccurate colours in the future. Now that really would be worth spending £20-£30 more on the printer from the authorised distributor. But, no, regardless of where you get the printer from, there is only a single generic profile.
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