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View Full Version : SubTHAT! Initial Reviews & Findings



Justin
18-05-2018, 12:40 PM
I was very kindly sent samples of SubTHAT! about a month ago from Troy (IKONICS Corporation) who is the Director of Chemical Research and the Manufacturer of SubTHAT!

I've never bothered with any of the spray coatings for sublimation as personally, I've never felt you would achieve a constant/even covering unless you had a very good setup in a dust free environment, far too much 'faffing' around, in my opinion.

A while back I was sent samples from a company who were on the brink of perfecting and releasing wooden products that were pre-coated, I won't go too much into this here but needless to say they're still not at the market and results were far from good.

So, SubTHAT! what is it? In a nutshell it's a heat transferable film, supplied in sheets which transform raw products into sublimation ready blanks.

Sure, I watched the videos online and Conde made it look very easy and the end product 'looked' superb but unless I've seen it first hand and tested the product I'm always a little sceptical of something that looks so good.

My very comprehensive sample pack consists of matte white, gloss clear and matte clear sheets. Troy even included a few wooden sample discs to test onto with pre-cut sheets.

The wooden discs were totally bare, sanded smooth but coated in no other way. I decided to use the matte white as I didn't want too much of the wood to show through for this test.

The idea is to heat press the sheet/material onto the blank, allow it to cool, remove a carrier sheet and your product is ready to sublimate.

I had a play with a few of the discs but wasn't sure on timings so watched the Conde video and went over the detailed instructions Troy had sent over to me.

First few prints looked good, pretty much what I'd expected, nothing special but hey, it's working. Obviously needed some tweaking. The sheets were going onto the blank discs evenly, no problem. The edges of the discs weren't very clean and were a little rough so the sheet was a little patchy in those areas and was flaking off.

I turned my attention to some other wooden blanks I have. 3mm thick birch ply, well finished/sanded wood. I'd played with the timings and was pretty confident I was close to the optimal time. I put the sheet on and allowed it to apply for 90 seconds. Upon removal from the press (ouch hot!) the carrier was already lifting, that's fine and I was told this can happen. I allowed it to cool before effortlessly removing the carrier sheet.

Upon close inspection I could see the coating had completely covered the surface and this time, because I'd used well finished wood, there was no patchy coating over the edges. So far so good. Now, on to the sublimation process. I pressed my image onto the now coated wood for 45 seconds. Excitedly I removed the wood from the press and tore off the paper like a child at Christmas.....too much?!

WOW! Yes, I used the word and I'll say it again, WOW! I was blown away with the result. It was so much better due to being on a better surface and I'd finally got the timings spot on. The image was incredibly clear, colours spot on in my test image. The very slight grain in the wood can be seen in the image and this looks really, really good.
It appears immediately very hard wearing and I'm told it strengthens over the first 24 hours anyway. It's hard to show on a photograph just how good this is but I'll attach some of my poor offerings below anyway.

OK, back to the 'sceptical' me. I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong and being totally honest I hadn't expected much from this but my initial tests quickly confirmed what's being said that this really could be a game changer. Yes, it's very early days. I need to test the other types of sheet, different materials, larger wooden panels etc. but I have little doubt this stuff will continue to impress. The initial blank product appears to be key, you need a decent surface with well sanded/finished edges. You can print onto less even surfaces by applying multiple sheets to 'fill in' the gaps.

Could this be something new and exciting? I really think it could be. There's no UK supplier/distributor right now so I'm waiting to hear who's going to take this on. We can import form the USA and prices don't seem too bad at all. I have lots of ideas on how this can help my business so I'm sure it could be a valuable tool in the sublimation toolbox. I'm not getting paid for this review and have no involvement with the suppliers/manufacturers in any way but I was keen to share my findings with the Forum. Of course I'll be looking forward to DSF Premium Member discounts but that's not the main focus right now!

Apologies again for the poor photos, not as dark as this in reality, I'll try and get some clearer ones asap.

https://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5172&stc=1 https://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5173&stc=1 https://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5174&stc=1 https://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5175&stc=1

Justin
18-05-2018, 12:56 PM
Here's some clearer instructions on using SubTHAT!

https://shop.jdsindustries.com/site_images/pdfs/SubTHAT_2017.pdf

Justin
18-05-2018, 12:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX_04FyjMMk

harlequeen
18-05-2018, 01:58 PM
I'm keen to try this, is it available to purchase from the USA at the moment?

Justin
18-05-2018, 02:14 PM
Yes, this is the US distributor. They may ask you to sign up before you can see prices, any problems let me know and I'll speak to Troy.

http://www.jdsindustries.com/

TBergstedt
18-05-2018, 03:50 PM
I hope it's not taboo for manufacturers to chime in on review threads, but I just wanted to clarify that the videos that Justin mentioned were made by JDS Industries, not Conde.

Also, until we have UK distribution channels set up, orders can be placed direct by contacting Mike VanOvermeiren at mvano@ikonics.com. Tell him you're on the DSF and we may be able to offer a discount on your first order.

pisquee
18-05-2018, 04:25 PM
Thanks for this Justin - I missed the thread about it earlier in the year, but we could def be interested in this. What's the pricing per sheet/roll on it - Can't see pricing on the JDS website

Justin
18-05-2018, 04:29 PM
Troy, can we publish prices on here please? JDS wouldn't allow me to see prices until I'd signed up as a trade customer. Only other issue I had when looking to order was they wouldn't allow a small order.

pisquee
18-05-2018, 05:19 PM
Filled in application for JDS and clicked the submit button, but it's sat there spinning for 5 minutes now - not sure if an actual person has to click approve for it to do anything.

pisquee
18-05-2018, 05:31 PM
Oh, just seen, it's saying "What does your company specialize in: invalid entry" not sure where that question is to answer it correctly.

Customprintwales
18-05-2018, 05:43 PM
I'm really looking forward to using this.

The sheer number of new products I bouncing around in my head is giving me a headache :)

TBergstedt
18-05-2018, 05:49 PM
OK, here are JDS's current list prices:


Sheets:
Part# / Description / Case Qty / Price
--------------------------------------------------------------------
STGC10X125S / 10"x12" / gloss clear sheet / 5 / $6.95 per sheet
STGC14X1710S / 14"x17" / gloss clear sheet / 10 / $13.10 per sheet
STMC10X125S / 10"x12" / matte clear sheet / 5 $6.95 per sheet
STMC14X1710S / 14"x17" / matte clear sheet / 10 / $13.10 per sheet
STMW10X125S / 10"x12" / matte white sheet / 5 / $6.95 per sheet
STMW14X1710S / 14"x17" / matte white sheet / 10 / $13.10 per sheet

Rolls:
Part# / Description / Price
-----------------------------------------------------------
STGC17X15 / 17" x 15' gloss clear roll / $153.00
STMC17X15 / 17" x 15' matte clear roll / $153.00
STMW17X15 / 17" x 15' matte white roll / $153.00


Accessories:
Part# / Description / Price
-----------------------------------------------------------
ST12X12SHT / 12" x 12" high temp silicone sheet / $15.95
ST16X20SHT / 16" x 20" high temp silicone sheet / $32.95
GKHCR181416 / 1/8" x 14" x 16" heat conductive pad / $110.40
STPRIMER / Primer wipes* - 5 wipes/pack / $2.29

*The primer wipes are primarily for improved adhesion and durability on glass and glazed ceramic, but also provide benefits on aluminum, some types of stone, and potentially other hard material types

Justin
18-05-2018, 09:46 PM
Just to clarify Troy, you've mentioned prices as per sheet but is this not per pack of 5/10 sheets etc?

TBergstedt
18-05-2018, 10:43 PM
That is correct Justin - the sheet pricing is per sheet, and is sold in either 5-packs or 10-packs. The roll price is obviously per roll. This works out to 5 cents per square inch for the rolls, 5.5 cents per square inch for the larger sheets and about 5.8 cents per square inch for the smaller sheets.

Justin
18-05-2018, 11:03 PM
So a single 10 x 12 sheet is $6.95?

TBergstedt
18-05-2018, 11:07 PM
Yes, and they're not sold individually, only in packs of 5.


So a single 10 x 12 sheet is $6.95?

Justin
18-05-2018, 11:17 PM
Wow ok. So, I can buy a piece of birch wood prepared for a table mat, costs me under $1.50. I then use a sheet off SubTHAT! which costs $6.95 so my cost price before printing is $8.45 for one table mat?

Surely I'm missing something here?

ArferMo
18-05-2018, 11:23 PM
yea shipping and import tax

webtrekker
19-05-2018, 12:01 AM
Not going to be a viable proposition for me I'm afraid. Too expensive.

TBergstedt
19-05-2018, 12:04 AM
Pricing is outside my sphere of influence (thankfully), but I do know that the pricing was largely based on what the typical upcharge is for substrates with sublimation coating vs. uncoated substrates.

For example, JDS sells sublimatable ceramic tiles (4.25" x 4.25") for about $1 each, while I buy them untreated locally for $0.10 - this $0.90 difference works out to almost exactly $0.05 per square inch. If you look at other examples where JDS offers essentially the same piece both with and without sublimation treatment, you'll find that in many cases the upcharge equates to $0.10 - $0.15 per square inch. Understand that SubTHAT was not intended to compete with pretreated substrates available off the shelf, but rather to enable sublimation on odd shapes, sizes or materials that aren't available elsewhere.

It's not my place to set or even justify the pricing, I'm just trying to illustrate what I believe to be the reasoning behind it.

pisquee
19-05-2018, 10:39 AM
... Yes, but if that's you're reasoning for the pricing, then you haven't considered other factors, such as the cost of the employees time to make the blank, along with machine time, and electricity to make it, or the increased wastage/seconds rate from written off blanks which haven't coated properly, if we're doing the coating itself DIY fashion, then it should be a lot cheaper, and comparing it to ready made blanks doesn't cut it. Especially when you compare to buying blanks in bulk for large orders, and the price points needed for wholesaling sublimated products onto other businesses for them to sell in retail shops (or large commission marketplaces like notonthehighstreet and hard to find, margins are tight, and with your price point, you've created a great product which is too expensive to really be viable. It seems from what you've said, that you've gone for the how high a price can we charge for the product and get away with it, rather than what is a fair price for our costs with a profit, which will allow the product to sell well.

webtrekker
19-05-2018, 10:47 AM
I particularly took issue with the product when the lady in the video said, matter of factly, that if any spots in the coating were left uncovered after pressing simply press on another sheet. It was at that point I looked up the price of another sheet!

Customprintwales
19-05-2018, 10:47 AM
I think we need to realise that this is not for the mass market where there are plenty of pre-treated blanks available.

It's perfect though for dong original designs and items. I'm certainly looking forward to working with it but you definitely have to lose the mass market pricing mentality :)

Justin
19-05-2018, 01:43 PM
I particularly took issue with the product when the lady in the video said, matter of factly, that if any spots in the coating were left uncovered after pressing simply press on another sheet. It was at that point I looked up the price of another sheet!

Yes, I've also been told you can build up several layers on an uneven surface, work that one out!

I'm afraid I have to be completely honest and say this will be a non starter in the UK at this price point. I had understood from the JDS website that the cost was around $1 per sheet which would be reasonable. Whether I mis-read that or not I don't know but the pricing and advertisement in packs of 5/10 sheets let me to believe this so possibly something has changed, I don't know.

You would have to watch the amount of waste. 3 four inch tiles couldn't be done on a 10x12 sheet for example, just 2 and there'd be waste.

As pointed out previously, import tax, handling and VAT would push this price much higher.

I'll PM you Troy to discuss this further but I'm afraid this changes my whole outlook on the process.

I would envisage sales of a few hundred sheets a year in the UK at this price for specialist application to particular one off blanks. Reduce the price to $1 per sheet and you'll sell 100,000's, I'm sure of it. Something would have to give on pricing.

webtrekker
19-05-2018, 01:51 PM
It's a shame, as the idea seems sound. I wish the company every success but, as Justin has just said, some serious thought needs to be put into the pricing point. Maybe more cost-effective production methods, or cheaper sources of raw materials will make this a game-changer in the future.

pisquee
19-05-2018, 02:27 PM
Wondering if there's companies in China doing similar type sheets at more realistic pricing now ... wish Alibaba was easier to search!

socialgiraffe
19-05-2018, 03:29 PM
I don't think it is a non starter for the UK market, just possibly a different market.

For example I have been asked on many occasions for a one off item that my customer supplies to me. In those examples this stuff would be perfect and would come with a £50.00 price tag making it both a suitable option and a financially viable one.

Just an opinion.

Customprintwales
19-05-2018, 03:41 PM
I agree, it is perfectly suitable for the UK market.

Life in the mass market is tough and competitive. This product allows us to widen the options from premium products and premium pricing.

anything to help lift profit margins and chase house prices has to be a good thing. for a small operator, the mass market is not an option to produce good profits. I can not compete with the Chinese and have no intention of doing so.

Paul
19-05-2018, 11:03 PM
I don't think it is a non starter for the UK market, just possibly a different market.

For example I have been asked on many occasions for a one off item that my customer supplies to me. In those examples this stuff would be perfect and would come with a £50.00 price tag making it both a suitable option and a financially viable one.

Just an opinion.
Yes, there is market for that. But like Justin said, they will sell few hundreds for sure but not 100.000s...

TBergstedt
21-05-2018, 04:57 PM
All good points being raised, and all are appreciated. Your pricing concerns will be passed along to those who need to hear them.

When I first joined the forum to chime in on some posts that showed up in the original SubTHAT thread, I assured Justin that I was here to offer technical assistance only, not to make sales pitches, so I'm going to tread lightly in the public forum in that respect to remain true to my word. For those who may decide to give it a go despite the price, I'm here to help you out in any way that I can.

pisquee
21-05-2018, 09:03 PM
Despite the price, we may find a use for it, just not for as many prod dev ideas we first had.

webuk44
21-06-2021, 02:13 PM
Whats the difference between this and pre laminating with a lamination pouch sheet from trhe local shops?

Justin
21-06-2021, 02:15 PM
No idea, this companhy fell off the face of the earth some time ago I'm afraid, no further contact and no longer responded to emails so it's dead in the water.