mug colour test - a must have

[mrs maggot]

one of the members on here suggested printing a test mug, with corel, i drew and coloured in a set of ovals just to see what colours i get vs, what i see on screen, i used some basic CMYK colours, blue, red, green, pink, yellow, cyan, black, orange

now from this i can see, that my printer sx515 is doing a good job, and if i stick to those colours i should be fine.

sorry i cant remember the name of whoever suggested it, but i think every home should have one - thank you

should point out its printed on a real xpres cheapie as i did not want to waste a good mug lol, but i quite like it now, so might do some more on BMS mugs

[John G]

Do Xpres do cheap mugs?

[AdamB]

.........sorry i cant remember the name of whoever suggested it, but i think every home should have one - thank you


you're welcome Laura.

I have a mug with colours, a piece of metal and a placemat - just to keep an eye on things.

It's good to get what you actually want so doing it this way you know what you'll end up with, no matter what the colour is on screen (as long as you don't change profiles between prints).

:-)

[Andrew]

We use a mug per each main colour with all different shades - blues, reds, greens etc. We also print these with the correspong pantone ref so we know which one is needed to get a near pantone match.

[JSR]

I'm not sure I understand the benefit of having a mug with spot colours printed on it. If you have an accurate profile, what do you gain?

[Andrew]

I'm not sure I understand the benefit of having a mug with spot colours printed on it. If you have an accurate profile, what do you gain?

You must be lucky with that "If". I've never known any of the sawgrass profiles to be spot on with colours and always slight variants. We've done some of our own where needs be but some colours like green can sill be some way off. Also, you would need to calibrate a screen which you are viewing on.

Do you get your profile spot on then with what ever you see is what prints out? I know Paul likes his profiles as well. If you guys are getting it working like that then I'll have to get some tips. If someone asks for a design with a certain pantone is that straightforward for your profile?

[JSR]

The only "tip" I can offer is to get your own profiles done. Profiles can be done on a "per-image" basis for more accuracy if you're trying to match specific colours.

I agree with you about the ones provided by Sawgrass. The best they can be described as is "close enough if you're lucky". I daren't count how much wasteage I had with wrong colours when I believed that "supported by Sawgrass profile" was all there was to it. Providing a single profile and expecting it to produce good results for everyone's entry-level printer is narrow-minded thinking at best. I've never been able to offer colour-matching with Sawgrass' profile.

Having used Paul's profiling device a couple of months back, I'm now desperately trying to save up enough funds to get my own one. It's the only real solution.

[John G]

You're never going to get acurate pantone colour matches with sublimation printing - all it takes is 10 seconds under/over and the item will be a different shade of the colour required.

[Andrew]

I personally don't know that much about profiles. I have someone here who tweaks the available ones but don't think we have made one from scratch. Guess we are missing a trick on that. Don't know if profiling per design is cost effective? Does it take long?

Have there been previous discussions on this profiling device of Paul's? I've heard it mentioned a few times. How much is it? I'll do a search when I get a chance for threads where it might have been discussed previously.

[Andrew]

You're never going to get acurate pantone colour matches with sublimation printing - all it takes is 10 seconds under/over and the item will be a different shade of the colour required.

We often get asked to Pantone match and haven't had a sinle complaint with the results as of yet. We have taken over 10 mugs in some cases to get it spot on. One problem though is the substrate you print on as the white gloss mug will lift the colour more due to the transparency of the ink.

I did recently get a mug screenprinted with a bright yellow onto a dark mug. This was way off and a credit had to be done for the customer. With sublimation we then got it just about spot on. The customer just had to make do with a white handle area.

[JSR]

It's worth bearing in mind the relatively tiny colour gamut from dye-sub inks. For example, if you compare the Sawgrass-supplied Epson 1400 profile with the Epson-supplied profile, the Sawgrass one is tiny. This demonstrates how weak Artanium inks are in comparison to OEM inks that are designed for photos.

I compared the Sawgrass-supplied profile for the Epson 1400 with the Epson profile for my 4-colour laser printer - and still the Sawgrass profile is tiny in comparison, which suggests that I can get more accurate colours out of a CMYK laser printer than from Sawgrass CcMmYK inks.

That's no surprise, of course, because we're using the same Artanium inks in today's printer that we were using in printers 10 years ago. The ink hasn't changed, developed, evolved, or improved. We often bemoan the likes of Epson because of their high ink prices, but at least OEM printer manufacturers constantly develop/improve their inks. All certain dye-sub ink manufacturers do is to take our money for their expensive ink and occasionally let us have a profile (usually just before a printer is about to be discontinued).


We often get asked to Pantone match and haven't had a sinle complaint with the results as of yet.
If the colour you're asked for is within the colour gamut of the inkset then you have a chance of getting away with it.


Have there been previous discussions on this profiling device of Paul's? I've heard it mentioned a few times. How much is it? I'll do a search when I get a chance for threads where it might have been discussed previously.
I borrowed it before Christmas, during which time I worked on a Brother printer set-up.

The main issue I had before using the device was with an Epson B40W. When using the Sawgrass profile, photos printed with a hideous green cast over it all. No amount of tweaking would solve anything. I was on the verge of throwing a £100 printer in the bin because I believed it was just a shoddy entry-level printer. However, after 30 minutes with Paul's profiling device, I had a new profile and the results were so close to spot-on that it was just incredible. I couldn't believe the difference between the, frankly, cr*p I got from the Sawgrass profile and the near-perfection I got with the custom-made profile.

I then went to profile my other printers. I have two Epson 1400s here, one from 2007 and one from 2010. With a good amount of tweaking, I could get "good enough" prints - but with different profiles. The Sawgrass-supplied "v1" profile worked on the 2007 printer, but not on the 2010 printer. The "v2.5" profile worked on the 2010 printer but was awful on the 2007 printer. After profiling them myself, they both now produce results matching each other.

I concluded that I'd been fooling myself in my belief that the supplied profile was the solution, when it turned out to be the problem.

If you're lucky to have a printer that was manufactured within the same tolerances as the one Sawgrass used to create their profile then you'll get away with it. But if you're at the other end of the tolerance or outside it (which is very probable with entry-level printers), then the supplied-profile causes more problems than it solves.

[Andrew]

So how does the profiling overcome the problem "what you see on the paper isn't always going to be what you get on the mug" scenario? Do you calibrate from the actual mug print or does the profiler go as far to negate this issue by having the print on the paper coming out exactly the same on the mug?

[JSR]

You do the profile on the end-result. In my case, I subbed some 12x8 metal sheets that I got from BMS and then used that to create the profile.

You'll never get the print that comes out of the printer to look the same as the mug because the inks don't reach their full colour until heated.

[John G]

The screen printed mugs you mentioned - that's down to the screen printer and his ink mixing knowledge. If he couldn't mix it - he shouldn't have printed it. Been matching to pantone requests all my working life with screen inks - Greens can be a nightmare.

As for the pantone matching with sublimation - I don't offer it, I say i'll get as close as possible but I ain't wasting mug after mug trying to reach the unreachable. It might be different if all my orders where for hundreds or 1000's but for an order of 20 mugs with a logo on they get what they supply or what i've proofed with them.

[Paul]

also is worth to mention thiat you can create your screen then printer (inks) and now you get on mug what you see on the screen ;)
so thats why I cant see any point to print dots on mug.

[Andrew]

John - that screenprint on a mug was with the largest company from the UK in the industry. I know many t-shirt printers will lay down a base layer when needed i.e. printing light on dark, but this doesn't seem to be the case for mugs. I don't think they even adjusted the colour to try and compensate. Our orders are mostly hundred plus so pantone matching we do when asked.

Paul - do you mean calibrate the screen? Are you saying then have the screen match the printed product colour?

What we do works for us and on a large scale but if you guys have a better way then always happy to learn. Profiles have never been my thing as I leave that to someone else.

[Paul]

yes. I mean screen calibration. Imagin that somone sending your photograph and it looks ok on screen but not on the mug???? its not necesserly mean your printer profile is bad or faulty coating on mug etc... your screen may simply display reacher or poorer colors with diferent saturation/brightness then is realy is on photograph so screen calibration is a must in my opinion. btw... you can do printer and monitor with one tool whitch is great :)

[mrs maggot]

i have found it quite useful, until i have the printer set up properly, just to see what the colours look like on the mug rather than on my large screen, i dont stick photos on mugs mine is all colour work, and i am fairly new at it - adam suggested it as a good idea to see what the colours are like in a simple way, i know it does not cover every colour, but its given me a better understanding of the colours

[JSR]

If you have faith in the profile you currently use for your printer, it's fairly cheap to get a monitor-only profiling gadget. They're usually around £80-£100, I think. I have one here which I would willingly sell to put funds towards Paul's profiling device, but mine's a bit old now so no one would want it.


i have found it quite useful, until i have the printer set up properly, just to see what the colours look like on the mug rather than on my large screen, i dont stick photos on mugs mine is all colour work, and i am fairly new at it - adam suggested it as a good idea to see what the colours are like in a simple way, i know it does not cover every colour, but its given me a better understanding of the colours

I do recall doing something similar while troubleshooting a couple of years back. I couldn't get a brown horse to be brown, so I printed blocks of colours to try and see which one was the most "off" - in the hope of tweaking that colour back in on the PC. All the blocks printed close enough to what they should have been - but I still had a horse the wrong shade of brown. I guess all the blocks I printed were in-gamut, while the brown wasn't.

I wish I'd known then what I know now.

[mrs maggot]

well i still think for a newbie who is printing for the first time, it would help with the "paper looks faded, colours are not right" questions, and also help with the diagnosis of poorly printed mugs, if everyone did something similar like a DSF test mug would help a lot when they posted pics up lol

[Andrew]

yes. I mean screen calibration. Imagin that somone sending your photograph and it looks ok on screen but not on the mug???? its not necesserly mean your printer profile is bad or faulty coating on mug etc... your screen may simply display reacher or poorer colors with diferent saturation/brightness then is realy is on photograph so screen calibration is a must in my opinion. btw... you can do printer and monitor with one tool whitch is great :)

The problem with screen calibration is it is needed on both the sender and receiver end. We have our screens done. This hasn't always solved our problems of getting the correct colour though. We get sent an email with artwork on from non-calibrated screens. We even had 1 issue befor where we sent out a sample mug and they complained the colours were way off. After explaining "What they see on their screen isn't always what we see on ours" scenario, it then came to light that they had one of them screen cover things that hang in front of the monitor as well as the brightness low as they have trouble with their eyes looking at a screen all day. This is why we do encourage the supply of pantone reference. That's the only way we can get around these eventualities.

If everyone had their screen calibrated it would make life far easier.

Have you got a link to this profiling device Paul? How does it work?

[Ian]

I only just began dye subbing. In fact I've only printed 30 mugs so far, but I've been in printing for over 20 years. I Only use laptops, so colour calibration of my screen is not very easy, as the further it tilts away the more it changes colours and brightness.
I tries sawgrass profiling but didn't like the colours so I just defined my own. It only took 5 or 6 mugs to get colours close enough for the photos I print. I don't have a pantone chart anymore, but thats the only way to get true colours that everyone is happy with, but its for spot colours only and not for shades like photographs.

[Paul]

Ian. Laptop calibration is not only Not easy but also is pointlerss. as you said. diferent angle will give you diferent colours...
Also I just can not belive somone who is 20 years in this game has not got custom profile made for his machines! All peopleI know who own printing shops etc own colour calibration devices to calibrate printers and monitors.

I did try waht y said for solid colours and it worked some kind of way but for shades and skiontones I needed profile. I got my munki now and even most tricky tones are not big problem :)

[Ian]

Paul. I've only just begun with dye sub. I have been in litho printing, but left the trade 8 years ago. I have a gift shop and have just begun to print photo mugs of the landscape. Litho printing is CMYK and you have a set of colour squares printed on each sheet to keep the calibration correct. I no longer have access to any print shop equipment :(