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Photo-Lite
02-05-2011, 11:18 AM
we are desperate for a solution to the problem my friend has.
he bought a sublimation mug printing set up package second hand from ebay about 6 months ago and has now desided to start to use it.
the problem he is having is that they grey colours are not grey. they come out a dark mucky brown colour.
all the other colours are ok. its just the grey.
he has an epson D120, with a continous ink flow system.
the disk he was given with the printer for the set up of the printer, colour managment etc have been installed following the instructions given but still no joy.
everything is set up on the computer as should be.
he uses coreldraw 12 for the sublimation but he has tried corel paint shop pro x, microsoft office and other different image editing software to see if it was a software issue but they all have the same effect.
we have tried to get in touch with the person he got it from to see if the ink is Rotech (as this is the cd he has) but the seller is no longer a registered seller and he is unsure of what ink he has used.

printer heads are all clean with no blockage.

Has anybody got any ideas what he can do as it is driving him made and he is on about selling the whole lot.

Kaz
02-05-2011, 11:56 AM
Has he tried buying new ink and trying that?

Photo-Lite
02-05-2011, 12:05 PM
the continuos ink flow is full of ink so he was hoping to use the ink there first before replacing and he is still unsure if that will work as all the other colours come out spot on.
if all colours came out wrong then i would say change all ink but it is just the grey he can not get

Paul
02-05-2011, 12:56 PM
double profiling somehre there. uninstall everything and instal again. I am sure icc is not set correctly.

Photo-Lite
02-05-2011, 01:05 PM
everything has been unistalled and reinstalled.
got a new ICC profile for different ink.
going to install that and do a print off and see what happens

Paul
02-05-2011, 01:39 PM
what ink you got and what icc???

Photo-Lite
02-05-2011, 01:47 PM
this is the problem as we dont know what ink he has and the person that sold him the package isnt registered anymore.
we have used Rotech D120_RGB_v1 which gave him the mucky brown colour.
he has just installed the ArTainium_UV+_D120_RGB_v2.5 and has just done a test and the grey is more a mucky green.
we are guessing it is neither of these inks.
somebody said it could be HTC ink from china but we cant find a profile for that

Matt Quinn
02-05-2011, 02:16 PM
In my view the issue boils down to one of two things...

Either the black ink supply / head is not working or the colour profiling is incorrect - This could indeed be down to double profiling.

Ideally ICC profiles are tailored not just to the ink, but to the particular printer and the substrate... I have an epson 1290 for instance that is set up primarily for producing exhibition-standard photographs on Ilford Galerie paper using Lyson inks... Running a different paper through it produces VERY different results and we have developed a set of 'correction parameters' to deal with canvas; which again is of a particular manufacture... A second machine using a monochrome ink set deals with Black and White work...

One possible technique to deal with a gross colour cast is to use Maxwell's Triangle as a 'map' to helping you decide which way to adjust the CMY elements in your printer's 'settings' so as to pull the 'grey' to more of a neutral shade...

http://photographybasicsonline.com/color_fund/maxwell.html

You'll see that Cyan opposes Red, Magenta opposes Green and Yellow opposes Blue on the triangle...

This is primarily a description of ADDITIVE colour space where the centre tends to white... You can just as 'validly' (is that even a word?) place CMY at the corners of the triangle, have RGB on the opposite points and draw it as tending to black...

Now... To use Maxwell's triangle you look at the colour cast you have... Brown would be probably in the orangy-yellow direction if it were a brighter shade. So, increasing Cyan slightly and decreasing Yellow should pull it more neutral, possibly with either a Green or Magenta cast... Which you can adjust by altering the Magenta levels...

Of course this is no substitute for having a proper profile made; and there are people who provide this sort of service... I understand (through talking to others) the process is likely to be rendered all the more complex by the fact that the true final colours cannot be judged until the ink is transferred to a sublimatable surface...

The added complication here is that you don't know the source of the ink! - So when that lot runs out you might well need a new profile for whatever reliable source you DO use! And of course before using a new inkset you'd ideally flush out the remains of the old stuff before having that new profile installed!

And will all THAT said I'd still first be questioning the perfomance of the black cartidge/ink... Black exists in the CMYK system BECAUSE whilst CMY theoretically mixes to give black, no dyestuf is perfect and what works in theory doesn't work in practice!

...And it's at this point this broadcast technician, more expert at working in additive colour mixing, calls for help from a printer!

Maxwell's Triangle will possibly help you make gross adjustments... And perhaps allow the 'old' ink to be used up productively. But I think ultimately custom profiling the particular set up is necessary - particularly if you're hoping to print photo-realistic work.

Photo-Lite
02-05-2011, 02:31 PM
i have check the ink and the printer has no nissed parts when he does a nozzle check.
i have deleted all the profiles that i can find and re installed them all.
using the Maxwells triangle is good i you are doing a fresh print, but because i have an image sent to me i cant use it.
i have adjusted the colours in the print set up so we have more ink or less ink but to no avail.
using the ArTainium_UV+_D120_RGB_v2.5 has changed the muckey brown that should be grey to a green hint of grey.
just installed D120_RGB_v2 but this is still just as bad.
i have found some one that has got the ink from china (HTC i think it is) and we are going to use this when we find a profile

Matt Quinn
02-05-2011, 02:49 PM
Slightly baffled by your response...

IS this a general issue with the system or are you simply having trouble printing a particular image?

It's also worth mentioning that you should be making quite small adjustments, printing, pressing, assessing... Quite a time-consuming and relatively expensive business really. Can't help thinking a commercial profiling service would be quicker, easier and cheaper.

An ICC profile is better than correcting gross colour casts via the printer's control software as it provides a tailored response for each colour over a range of luminances; but essentially it's doing a very similar job to simply altering the gross proportions... The fact that the ArTainium profile shifted the cast in the predicted direction is somewhat indicative of something!

You might want to have a look here; see if this hints at something you might make use of. Otherwise all I can usefully suggest is have a custom profile made.

http://www.normankoren.com/color_management_3.html

Photo-Lite
02-05-2011, 02:59 PM
all the images he prints are correct colour apart from images that have grey in them, then the grey comes out either brown with Rotech or a green with ArTainum.
he has tried printing text from various shades of grey and none of them come out grey.
i have just found out he has had this problem for over a week now and he has got that frustrated with it he is now planing on selling the whole lot.
i will have a look at the link and see if there is anything there that will help.
thanks

Paul
02-05-2011, 04:38 PM
grey is most dificult color to achive and only solution is to get custom icc profile made for his printer. Can you tell me if you judge your colors on paper or pressed on substrate like a mug etc??? Also what softwarw is used for printing and what settings please. I think i know the answer. ;)

Photo-Lite
02-05-2011, 04:48 PM
we have found out that grey is the hardest. we have been on it all day and got no where apart from going from brown to green but still no grey.
we can judge the colours on paper to a certain extent but we always double check and print on a scrap lanyard to see if the colours are correct.
software he uses is CorelDraw 12.
what settings are you refering to?
as soon as i know i will post them on here and fingers crossed you may have the answer as he/we are going around in circles and getting nowhere

Paul
02-05-2011, 06:08 PM
sorry :( i was hoping that you use PS :( i dont know how to set corel as i am not useing it :( Maybe Justin would post some screen shots of windows in color menagment in cirel???

John G
02-05-2011, 06:19 PM
If these are for mugs what times temp are you pressing?

Photo-Lite
02-05-2011, 06:41 PM
we have tried PS, Corel paint shop pro, office 2007 just name but a few and we get the same results. this is why i know it is a printing problem rather than a software problem.

Its mugs, lanyards, shirts etc etc.
no matter what he prints he can not get grey.
i dont think it is a heat and preasure problem as all other colours come out great

Paul
02-05-2011, 06:41 PM
they pressing o lanyards whitch is not good me thinks John :( what can you see on lanyRD?? :( i AM SURE THERE IS SOME SETTING MISSING THERE.

Photo-Lite
02-05-2011, 06:52 PM
we can see that the grey is not grey on a lanyard.
he might as well use scrap lanyards that he has as theres no point using expensive blanks untill we get the grey sorted out

Matt Quinn
02-05-2011, 07:42 PM
Greys ARE difficult to reproduce on any CMYK printer... About the only other option I can think of is finding a way of editing one of those ICC profiles... BUT, whilst that can be achieved it's something you need to know what you're doing with... And I'd love to be proved wrong; but I don't think there is a cheap and easy-to-use ICC editor out there...

Clearly the ArTainum profile is pulling the hues back from the yellow/orange end of the triangle. Probably what's needed from is an increase in the magenta and some fine tuning between Cyan/Yellow... But to do this with the colour controls takes some very VERY subtle and logically structured adjustment; and not all printer controls seem to allow that... This would explain the O/P's frustration with that method. We have an SX415 here which is nowhere near as 'tunable' as the 1290 for instance...

Having a custom profile made is what? £30 or so? Or you could get one of these...

http://www.speedgraphic.co.uk/colour_profiling/xrite_colormunki_photo/18316_p.html

I don't know what the OP means by 'having the image sent to them' or why they seem to be achieving nothing by using the printer's colour controls... Another option I guess would be to 'miscolour' the image to compensate for the print system's deficiencies. But the bottom line I suspect is that the proper custom ICC profile is what's needed. - As Scotty says; 'Ye canny change the laws o' physics!'

Paul
02-05-2011, 08:53 PM
my profile can print grey Matt. will post some pic of them mug later on with clor chart on it.

Matt Quinn
02-05-2011, 09:51 PM
I don't doubt it for a second Paul... But that's the value of having the correct profile.

In fact you'll probably find that most domestic printers with OEM inks do a pretty acceptable job of printing greys on paper and most other common media. And many of the after-market inks aren't a million miles off either. - But if you rolled the clock back nearly a decade when people were experimenting with what we'd now call gicleé printing and more serious photo printing this sort of conversation would have been pretty common...

If you scratch around the more serious photography forums though you'll still find folk agonising over much the same things... And ultimately the 'answer' for exhibition standard work is generally a monochrome inkset.

However... all that is academic; and I see little reason why, with the correct profile, perfectly acceptable greys wouldn't be possible - The profile is the key IMHO.

Paul
02-05-2011, 10:32 PM
all great. i agree 100% with you. profile is a must! but in sublimation world is not that easy. even with correct profile you can only go so close. sublimation color gamout is so small...


If you scratch around the more serious photography forums though
I flicked few in the past ;)

Matt Quinn
02-05-2011, 11:41 PM
I'm yet to do a sublimation run... But we do have some inks here, and even by eye they seem quite a way from the process colours I'm used to seeing. - Certainly a very small gamut is to be expected... Which makes accuracy all the more important. In another thread the matter of Dye Sub inks not advancing much over the years was raised; and I'm very much reminded of experiments many years ago with inks sourced from friends in the mainstream print industry...

So I expect this to be a bit of a step back to older techniques; and fully expect to be paying to have a profile done for my own set up very soon. Personally I wouldn't expect to be able to produce anything more than 'ballpark' results by eye... And that's with good colour accuity developed over 30 years dealing with colour images; albeit in a different context.

- Personally I suspect Dye-Sub is something properly do-able only with either well tried-and-tested, properly developed 'turnkey' systems... Or, if you're tempted along the path I have; where equipment is being sourced through various avenues, you need to be doing that with a lot of background technical knowledge... Enough at least to know what you're buying and working with. - Or at the very least you need to be prepared to invest the time and money on climbing the learning curve.

...You do seem to see some VERY variable results on the market!

Photo-Lite
03-05-2011, 01:45 AM
just a quick update.
we have managed to print the image off with grey in it.
dont know if it is a cure or just a bodge job. soon find out when he prints off a full colour image.
we ended up using the ArTainium profile and tweeking the colours in the printer properties untill we saw grey and yes we did save the settings just incase.

thanks again for all your feedback and like i say im not sure if it is a fix or just a cure for now so i think he will be still looking for a proper ICC profile

cheers everyone

Paul
03-05-2011, 09:46 AM
what do you mean by "weeking the colours in the printer properties"??
by doing this you dont actualy use profile any more.

Photo-Lite
03-05-2011, 02:30 PM
we turned the colour managment on set at ArTainium in corel draw and when we printed the image off we adjusted the ink in the properties in the printer and the image came out correct.
we also tried turning the colour managment off in coreldraw and printing with profile but the image came out green where it should of been grey.
we know it is not a fix but it gives him a bit more time to get a correct profile.

Paul
03-05-2011, 03:11 PM
so i think you doing all wrong then... your profile send diferent info to the printer and you telling you printer diferent info lol :)

set your corel like in this pdf file.
linky linky (http://sawgrassink.indigofiles.com/product_documentation/artainum/ARTAINIUM_Configuring_CorelDraw_for_ICC_Profiles.p df)

Photo-Lite
03-05-2011, 03:40 PM
Thanks for the link Paul.
this is the way we set as PDF but as we do not know what make of ink it is we tried various profiles and the best result we got was with ArTainium (but turned everything green) then adjusting printer.
when we use any of the profiles we managed to get hold of, the image is either brown or green where it should be grey.
he has managed to get hold of some ink from a china company (best sublimation) but they do not provide an ICC profile, so changing the ink to that is no better.
i think he will have to either bodge it untill ink runs out or replace all of his ink with a recognisable brand

Paul
03-05-2011, 03:46 PM
lets dont talk about ink on this moment. set it all asper your printer. most icc will work with any ink if profile is chosen for correct printer. so if you got 1400 dont chose icc for r285 :)

just chose your printer and artanium icc. colors should be ok. bit off but still not bad. and then start tweaking from there. otherwise you will loose this battle.

Photo-Lite
03-05-2011, 06:46 PM
he has just phoned me back and his printer is epson D120 which is not listed in that link.
will the epson C88 and C120 work?

Paul
03-05-2011, 08:39 PM
????
has hegot profile for d120? if so then all setting will be this same. only icc is chosen diferent. please correct me any one if iam wrong.

Photo-Lite
03-05-2011, 10:20 PM
yes he got D120_RGB_v1 and v2.5 which gave him the mucky brown colour.
he installed the ArTainium_UV+_D120_RGB_v2.5 which made the grey look green