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TonyM
28-01-2010, 11:10 PM
Hi all,
I have an Epson RX685. Could I use that with Sublimation ink or do I need to buy a new printer?
Is there a list of sublimation printers?
I a, considering getting an A3 if I need to buy a new one, any recommends?
I guess the Epson 1400. But when I type this in google it has no mention of sublimation? Is there more than one?

Many thanks

Tony

Justin
28-01-2010, 11:46 PM
Epson 1400 is the one you want for sublimation. Unless you have the money to get a Ricoh 7000. 1400's are about £250 at the moment.

As far as I know the RX685 can't be used for subli.

Justin :-)

JSR
29-01-2010, 01:21 AM
Hi all,
I have an Epson RX685. Could I use that with Sublimation ink or do I need to buy a new printer?
Is there a list of sublimation printers?
I a, considering getting an A3 if I need to buy a new one, any recommends?
I guess the Epson 1400. But when I type this in google it has no mention of sublimation? Is there more than one?

Many thanks

Tony
You would need to jump through a lot of unnecessary hoops to get the RX685 running sublimation ink because it's not supported by the patent holder of desktop dye-sublimation ink. It wouldn't be impossible, but I wouldn't recommend it.

There's no mention of sublimation when you google for "Epson 1400" because there is no desktop inkjet printer that was designed by the manufacturer for sublimation ink. What happens is that, when Epson bring out a new printer that looks like it might be suitable for dye-sub ink, the patent holder for desktop dye sublimation (Sawgrass) create a colour correction profile for their ink that suits that printer and sources a suitable continuous ink system. Once this is done, properly licensed resellers of Sawgrass ink are able to sell the CISS, with ink and colour correction profile, for that specific printer.

In short - if Sawgrass don't support it, it's not really worth using it for dye-sub.

To find out which printers are currently supported, go to your favoured sublimation supplier (a good one is www.printerowners.co.uk (http://www.printerowners.co.uk)) and browse their ink & printer section. Take note of the model numbers (there won't be many) and then find the cheapest place to buy your preferred printer (such as Amazon.co.uk) and then return to your supplier for the ink and CISS.

The seller of the printer and the manufacturer of the printer will not be able to help you with sublimation ink or a CISS, because the printer wasn't designed for that. You'll need to direct any issues you have to the supplier of your ink and CISS - so make sure you go to a reliable supplier.

If you're looking for an A3 printer, the best choice at the moment is the Epson 1400 - but they are working on a newer (cheaper) A3 model right now. That might be worth waiting for.

mrs maggot
29-01-2010, 10:16 AM
JSR that is such a good and comprehensive post, i think it should be split off and copied onto its own locked post it will help everyone - esp if it was titled, dye sub printer - the basics or such.

you have put into a few words what i have tried to read in loads of posts, afterall the individual printer a person chooses will depend on what features they are looking for over and above A4 or A3 but its how to find the suitable list of printers - which you have now given which is great to see - thank you

TonyM
29-01-2010, 01:20 PM
WOW, thanks JSR

I know I am in the right place now.
That was a brilliant answer.

Tony

TonyM
29-01-2010, 08:35 PM
Hi again,

When I buy a printer and set it up to work with sublimation ink, is that all i can then use that printer for?
I guess what i mean is do I need to buy another A3 printer to produce say photographs and posters?
So one for Sub work, such as mugs, plates, Tshirts etc, set up with a sub ink CISS and then a second A3 set up with normal ink for photos etc. Or can the sub ink set up do both? Does cost come into the equation in this case, as I seem to find sub inks far more expensive than normal inks and probably therefore not viable?
Hmmm! so many questions? Sorry

Tony

Paul
29-01-2010, 09:22 PM
:) you would print with subli ink but it would look awfull! colors wont be right at all. So you need diferent printer with normal inks.

Paul

JSR
29-01-2010, 11:52 PM
When I buy a printer and set it up to work with sublimation ink, is that all i can then use that printer for?
I guess what i mean is do I need to buy another A3 printer to produce say photographs and posters?
So one for Sub work, such as mugs, plates, Tshirts etc, set up with a sub ink CISS and then a second A3 set up with normal ink for photos etc. Or can the sub ink set up do both?
The ink colours in dye-sublimation ink aren't the same as the ink colours from the printer manufacturer's ink (OEM). Sublimation ink reacts under heat and so Sawgrass provide a colour correction profile that will, as close as is practical, make the print look "right" after pressing to your substrate (such as a mug). They don't care what the ink looks like on the paper that comes out of the printer - that's of no importance compared to the finished product.

So, if you print a regular document *with* the sublimation ink, you're going to get some very funny results. It may be acceptable for draft prints, or prints for which the colour isn't totally relevant, but not for photos.

I occasionally use my Epson 1400 with dye-sub inks to print out A3 CAD drawings and mind maps, but these are effectively black line drawings. Dye-sub black isn't a particularly deep black on paper, but it serves the purpose for these prints.

It is possible to remove the dye-sub CISS and pop OEM inks back in it for regular printing, and swapping back to dye-sub afterwards, but it's not recommended. Every time you swap out, a certain amount of ink will be flushed through the printer. And every time you remove the CISS and put it back again, you run the risk of introducing air bubbles into the printhead - and if that happens, you'll really have a right day of it.


Does cost come into the equation in this case, as I seem to find sub inks far more expensive than normal inks and probably therefore not viable?
If you look into it, you'll find that's a wrong assumption to make. When you buy ink for a CISS, the common price is approximately £60 per colour for a 125ml bottle - that's about 50p per ml. OEM ink, such as from Epson, generally costs around £10 for a cartridge containing about 10ml of usable ink - that's about £1 per ml. This simple calculation shows that dye-sublimation ink, even at its most expensive, is still half the price of OEM ink. Makes you think.

If you do a lot of printing, you can make bigger savings. If you buy your sublimation ink in 500ml quantities, it'll cost around £180 - that's about 36p/ml, just over a third of the price of OEM ink.

Sublimation ink only appears to be expensive because you have to buy it in bottles of 125ml - but each bottle of 125ml contains roughly the same amount of ink as 10 cartridges from the printer manufacturer. (YMMV, of course, but the savings are clear.)

The only time that sublimation ink is hideously expensive if is you buy cartridges instead of a CISS. The ink in a cartridge is the same quantity as OEM ink. I don't know if you can still get them these days but, when I started out, the cartridges for my Epson 1290 were around £50 each - compared to the OEM price of about £20. Rather than half the price, as they are with a CISS, they worked out to over double the price.

The conclusion is clear - stay away from dye-sub cartridges, and buy CISS ink in the largest quantity you can. (Don't buy it in large quantities if you don't think you're going to use it all within about a year or so, though.)

TonyM
30-01-2010, 12:45 AM
Once again JSR, many thanks for a fantasic clear answer.
I have decided to purchase 2 Epson 1400. One for photo printing and one for sub printing.
I have been looking at empty systems such as this.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/empty-ciss-cis-for-epson-1400-FOR-SUBLIMATION-INK-USE_W0QQitemZ250571010806QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Ton er?hash=item3a573232f6
What do you think about buying the sytem and ink as seperates?
Where would i but the ink as a seperate?
I see that the CISS system is £270 or therabouts, whereas the empty system is less than £25 and I keep seeing inks on e-bay all the time for part used inks etc.
Would it, in your opinion be worth purcasing an empty CISS system and try sourcing the ink from somewhere else. or just get the whole package in one?
Many thanks and i really do appreciate the totally professional and concise help that you have provided.
PS what does OEM represent?

Tony

Paul
30-01-2010, 12:58 AM
PS what does OEM represent?


original equipment manufacturer

JSR
30-01-2010, 01:14 AM
Once again JSR, many thanks for a fantasic clear answer.
I have decided to purchase 2 Epson 1400. One for photo printing and one for sub printing.
That's a very good idea. If you have two Epson 1400 and you end up with your main dye-sub one having problems (which usually happens in the middle of a very urgent order), you'll be able to switch over to your photo printer to complete the order if it becomes necessary. If you had two different printers, you wouldn't be able to do this. Your photo printer effectively becomes your backup printer. Nice thinking!


I have been looking at empty systems such as this.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/empty-ciss-cis-for-epson-1400-FOR-SUBLIMATION-INK-USE_W0QQitemZ250571010806QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Ton er?hash=item3a573232f6
What do you think about buying the sytem and ink as seperates?
Where would i but the ink as a seperate?
I see that the CISS system is £270 or therabouts, whereas the empty system is less than £25 and I keep seeing inks on e-bay all the time for part used inks etc.
Would it, in your opinion be worth purcasing an empty CISS system and try sourcing the ink from somewhere else. or just get the whole package in one?
When you're starting, I would say to get the CISS with ink from a reputable supplier of Artanium (Sawgrass) ink. When you buy the CISS with Artanium ink, it generally arrives "pre-primed" - that is with ink in the tubes and the cartridges.

It's usually a simple job of just putting the cartridges in the printer, securing the tubes and bottles as indicated in the instructions, and you're ready to go. If you buy the CISS empty from some third-party source, you'll have to get the ink through it on your own. If you run into trouble, will the CISS supplier help you out?

If you go for separates, you'll still need to get the ink. Buying the minimum quantity (125ml bottles at £61 each) will set you back £366 (inc. VAT) on top of the price of your CISS. However, if you buy the complete CISS with Artanium ink in one package - it'll cost about £310 (inc. VAT). That's £56 less, and no extra cost for the empty CISS, and no faffing about trying to get the ink through it.

Yes, there is a little less ink in a supplied CISS - 6x100ml instead of 6x125ml - however, using the cost price of 125ml being £61, then 6x100ml works out to £300 anyway. So, for £310 you're not being diddled out of paying more for the ink - in fact you could say that you're getting the CISS almost for free.

In addition to this, when you buy your filled CISS, you should be supplied with a CD which contains the correct colour correction profile for your printer and instructions of how to use it. If you buy an empty CISS and someone else's ink dregs off ebay, where will you get the profile from?

And, if you need any more convincing, if you do buy dregs of ink from ebay you need to ask two important questions. (1) Is it Artanium? There's no point mixing two or more varieties of dye-sub ink, because that will just lead to trouble. And if they say it's Artanium, do you trust them - or are they just saying what they think you want to hear? (2) How old is the ink? If someone is selling their dregs, they may have had it on their shelf for 1-2 years or even longer. If so, you don't want to touch it even if it's free!


Many thanks and i really do appreciate the totally professional and concise help that you have provided.
PS what does OEM represent?
OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer. In this instance, "OEM ink" refers to ink manufactured by the same people who manufacture the printer. "OEM ink" for the Epson 1400 is made by Epson. "OEM ink" for a HP Officejet is made by HP. The phrase "OEM ink" is short-hand for "ink not made by any third-party manufacturer".

Hope this helps.

TonyM
30-01-2010, 01:22 AM
Absolutely it helps.
Ok So I am going to go for the complete set up rather than the empty system and seperate inks.
I was just trying to cut costs I guess?
Where will I get the best price for the total CISS system?
Many thanks for the help and advice.

Tony

JSR
30-01-2010, 01:53 AM
Where will I get the best price for the total CISS system?
I think you'll find that almost all legitimate suppliers of Artanium ink will charge the same price. Sawgrass kind of control the end price of Artanium ink - which is why 125ml will cost £60ish (inc VAT) from all legitimate suppliers.

This applies to the complete CISS as well. As I calculated before, 6x100ml of ink would cost £300 - so you'd be expecting to pay around that price for the complete system including CISS.

The £310 price I used before is from BMS (www.printerowners.co.uk (http://www.printerowners.co.uk)) but they're not the only suppliers. I say that so you don't think I'm pushing you towards one particular supplier. I use BMS and I'm happy to say that they're quick, helpful, reliable, and usually quite kind to your pocket, but I use other suppliers as well (and I wouldn't if they were no good! ;)). Here's the link to the BMS page: http://www.printerowners.co.uk/sublimation/193/artainium-easyflow-systems-printers.htm They do have an option to supply the printer as well, but you'll find cheaper printer prices elsewhere.

Although suppliers can't vary the price of the ink & CISS too much, if you are also planning on buying some printables (mugs, mousemats, whatever) and consumables (paper, etc), then there's no harm in trying to knock them for a freebie. If you're planning on spending £310 on the CISS/ink and £100 on supplies, be cheeky and ask them to bung in a pack of paper for free (usual price around £16). They might say "no", but what have you lost? :D

If you don't yet have a heat press or any supplies, you may find you can save a bit by looking at the available bundles. Most suppliers will do a "startup package" which could be as little as a box of various different printables, to as extensive as a package including heat press, a bunch of printables, pack of paper, etc etc. They're usually good value when you're starting out.

Even if you don't intend to push them for a freebie, I would recommend you contact your chosen supplier (either by phone or email, whatever's your preference) before you order so you can satisfy yourself that the supplier is easy to contact in the event you have teething troubles. Ask them a simple question and, if they don't answer quickly and with a clear answer, maybe you should be looking elsewhere. If they can't answer a simple question, what chance do they have of answering the difficult ones? The last thing you want is to spend oodles of cash on what looks like a good package, only for the company in question to not respond to your emails/phone calls.

Back when I started, there were very few suppliers so we tended to have to put up with the few that there were. Today, we have more choice.