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View Full Version : Sawgrass - Exciting Announcement!



Justin
15-06-2012, 11:48 PM
I have been in contact with Sawgrass as I am keen to open up a line of communication between the forum and them.

I've very pleased to announce that Sawgrass have agreed this is a great idea and I will shortly be setting up a section for them to announce product launches and updates.

Another reason for speaking with Sawgrass was that I wanted to be able to have a regular Q&A with them, asking the questions that are regularly discussed here, costs of inks, types of printers, what the future holds and so on.

I have the obvious questions ready but if you have something in particular you'd like to ask please drop me a PM and I'll see what I can do.

This should prove to be a very interesting relationship as it develops.

JSR
16-06-2012, 12:00 PM
I take it we'll have to hold our tongues a bit more in the future... :redface:

Justin
16-06-2012, 12:07 PM
I get us a voice with Sawgrass and you say you'll have to hold your tongue???This is a great opportunity to get answers to often asked questions and maybe just maybe influence the future a little. What supplier wouldn't listen to such a great target audience?

JSR
16-06-2012, 12:11 PM
I get us a voice with Sawgrass and you say you'll have to hold your tongue???This is a great opportunity to get answers to often asked questions and maybe just maybe influence the future a little. What supplier wouldn't listen to such a great target audience?
Some of the things we've said might not sound too favourable to them. I just said what I said so that we don't cause you any trouble with them...


...maybe I should have held my tongue on that one, too... :wink:

Justin
16-06-2012, 01:09 PM
We need to be honest if we're to achieve anything but at least we now have someone who is willing to listen.

gorgall2
16-06-2012, 03:09 PM
Sounds good to me. Well done.

Charlie_
16-06-2012, 03:32 PM
Sounds good to me aswell

pisquee
16-06-2012, 10:34 PM
Hmmmm ... this could be interesting

Paul
16-06-2012, 10:57 PM
looks like only iam not as exited :rolleyes:

sensor
17-06-2012, 12:54 AM
I'm with you PaUl


looks like only iam not as exited :rolleyes:

Justin
17-06-2012, 08:34 AM
And why is that Paul?

bms
17-06-2012, 09:15 AM
Some of the things we've said might not sound too favourable to them. I just said what I said so that we don't cause you any trouble with them...


...maybe I should have held my tongue on that one, too... :wink:

I find it strange that sentiments such as this surface (not just JSR but other posts). As soon as anyone types something in this forum it is opened up to the world and remains in the virtual environment forever (cached, copied etc etc). So what makes anyone think that something they've said previously hasn't already been read by someone from Sawgrass (as a guest or logged on as a member under a pseudonym). If anyone was afraid of sharing their opinion then doing so on an open forum is a strange way of showing this!

JSR
17-06-2012, 09:55 AM
I find it strange that sentiments such as this surface (not just JSR but other posts). As soon as anyone types something in this forum it is opened up to the world and remains in the virtual environment forever (cached, copied etc etc). So what makes anyone think that something they've said previously hasn't already been read by someone from Sawgrass (as a guest or logged on as a member under a pseudonym). If anyone was afraid of sharing their opinion then doing so on an open forum is a strange way of showing this!
I only need to draw your attention to a certain mug torture test to remind you of how heated the best of intentions can become when something is done or said that doesn't directly favour a supporter of this forum. Had this been a truly independent forum with no direct support from suppliers, I would not have requested the thread be deleted.

Given how protective Sawgrass are and how limited the "authorised" options are, I see every post that doesn't use an authorised printer and authorised ink becoming just as heated. This forum has already gradually evolved into one in which non-Sawgrass inks cannot be discussed. Next it'll be non-supported printers that can't be discussed. How soon before a list of "restricted topics" becomes required reading?

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but it just concerns me that the original intention of having a "free and independent forum" is gradually being eroded away. If I'm the only one that's concerned about this, then please just dismiss me as being paranoid. The voice of an end user is but a small one compared to the importance of suppliers and manufacturers.

Justin
17-06-2012, 12:31 PM
The forum (and myself) have always made it clear that we will not discuss third party inks or support the use of them here, this is not something that has changed over the years.

To the best of my knowledge (and please do correct me if I'm wrong) there is nothing to stop you using non supported printers other than the fact that they are just that, on supported. It's the inks that have the patent applied not the printers.

One reason for opening up this communication is to discuss the use of other printers and possibly somewhere down the line we may just be able to work closer with Sawgrass on future products. I'm sure they have an extensive R&D dept. but having access to everyday users that can test products over different terms is certainly going to be of interest.

I really expected members to see this as a positive development. I would appreciate it if we could give this a chance to get off the ground and see how it develops before jumping to conclusions, I genuinely think you'll find this a very useful section.

JSR
17-06-2012, 12:35 PM
I would appreciate it if we could give this a chance to get off the ground and see how it develops before jumping to conclusions,
That's okay, I had already intended to keep my mouth shut about my concerns but I thought that Martin deserved a reply so that he would understand where those concerns are coming from. I won't be saying another potentially-negative word on the subject.

Ian M
17-06-2012, 04:50 PM
This should prove to be a very interesting relationship as it develops.

I think that it could be interesting in the way that someone of us will be very wary of them. The reason for this is that some of us have heard about some of the tricks they have pulled over the years such as threats to suppliers etc. To be honest I just don't like the way that they have operated over the years & I'm always going to doubt if they have now changed.

As for naming 3rd party ink's on here why can't we mention the large format sublimation inks made by other manufacturers that are licensed by Sawgrass? I used to try to help new members etc on here via PM telling them what I used & where I got everything from but, now I don't in fear that I could be passing everything on to a spy from Sawgrass pretending to be someone else. I joined this forum to be part of a community of like minded people not to play cloak & dagger with an ink manufacturer. Perhaps Sawgrass may like to change their name to Damocles & someone could supply them with a sword to hang over us because, that is what it feels like.

I know I'm cynical but, I don't think anything we suggest to them will ever get past the idea or suggestion stage. I do think it strange that they support a Brother DTG printer but, not any Brother desktop printer. What I'm saying is they are always going to listen to printer manufacturer's & not us.

I have always thought a forum to be a standard function as a marketplace & a gathering place of like minded people & a place of discussions and debates etc. yet we can't discuss this subject in the way some of us would like.

Didn't we have a printer manufacturer wanting to hear comments & be asked questions on here a little time ago? I asked a simple question & never got a reply back from them. Where are they now? I rest my case M'lud

Paul
17-06-2012, 05:12 PM
+1 ^^^^

Same here. I dont think they will listen to joe public what he got to say as long as they hold the patent. They might do when they losse the patent but not now.. My personal point of view is to NOT allow ANY ink manufactures on the forum. not only sawgrass but NONE of them. my 3p if that matter.

PAul

Justin
17-06-2012, 05:12 PM
I think that it could be interesting in the way that someone of us will be very wary of them. The reason for this is that some of us have heard about some of the tricks they have pulled over the years such as threats to suppliers etc. To be honest I just don't like the way that they have operated over the years & I'm always going to doubt if they have now changed.We could all dwell on the past Ian but personally I prefer to look towards the future with a positive outlook. You say you've 'heard' about these tricks over the years, I've also heard stories....usually form companies who aren't happy that they can no longer supply (often) inferior ink because they are infringing the patent. Sure, we could just accept that all of these stories are true and they'll never change, but honestly? What good will come of that?
As for naming 3rd party ink's on here why can't we mention the large format sublimation inks made by other manufacturers that are licensed by Sawgrass? I used to try to help new members etc on here via PM telling them what I used & where I got everything from but, now I don't in fear that I could be passing everything on to a spy from Sawgrass pretending to be someone else. I joined this forum to be part of a community of like minded people not to play cloak & dagger with an ink manufacturer. Perhaps Sawgrass may like to change their name to Damocles & someone could supply them with a sword to hang over us because, that is what it feels like.No-one has said that you can't discuss large format inks at all. The fact remains that they shouldn't be used in small format printers, that's the point. Does everyone really believe Sawgrass have never visited this site?
I know I'm cynical but, I don't think anything we suggest to them will ever get past the idea or suggestion stage. I do think it strange that they support a Brother DTG printer but, not any Brother desktop printer. What I'm saying is they are always going to listen to printer manufacturer's & not us. When did you last make a suggestion to them Ian and what was their response? Personally I recently approached them with the suggestion of getting their input to help our members further and possibly work together for the future. they have been nothing but positive over this, let's give them a chance first shall we?
I have always thought a forum to be a standard function as a marketplace & a gathering place of like minded people & a place of discussions and debates etc. yet we can't discuss this subject in the way some of us would like.I'm afraid this is down to the patent and unless you're looking at challenging this there really is little point in going over old ground. Debates are all good and well but the forum isn't primarily here for that, it's here to help new and old users get the best from their equipment whilst remaining within any legal agreements that have been put in place.


Didn't we have a printer manufacturer wanting to hear comments & be asked questions on here a little time ago? I asked a simple question & never got a reply back from them. Where are they now? I rest my case M'ludWhich manufacturer was this? Do you refuse to use their equipment due to their lack of co-operation?

Justin
17-06-2012, 05:18 PM
.....I dont think they will listen to joe public what he got to say.....PAul

Well, they've already indicated that they are willing to listen and indeed discuss matters with me, I see no reason for them to ignore us.

pisquee
14-09-2012, 03:46 PM
This section appears to have disappeared from the site ... did Sawgrass change their mind on participation?

purpledragon
14-09-2012, 05:21 PM
This section appears to have disappeared from the site ... did Sawgrass change their mind on participation?
i wouldnt blame them if they had given the negativity shown before they even got onto the forum. If sawgrass has pulled out personally i think its going to be a great shame. we are stuck with saw grass small format inks and as such from time to time we need a bit of support .
Take BMS as an example martin and scotty from bms post regually on this forum any problems if you cant get hold of their office post on here and its not long before someone from BMS answers now apply that to sawgrass what if you get no response from their office wouldnt it be better if you could then post on the forum for a response? and if the response didnt come well then we would all know that they are not upto much on customer service or if they did respond in a timly manner equally you would be reassured that you had good customer support. We must remember we are the customer and as such carry great weight no company wants a bad name its in their interest to help the customers i say give them the chance to do just this

Paul
14-09-2012, 05:51 PM
for me it looks like The greatest IanM word it few posts away...



Didn't we have a printer manufacturer wanting to hear comments & be asked questions on here a little time ago? I asked a simple question & never got a reply back from them. Where are they now? I rest my case M'lud

Ian M
14-09-2012, 08:40 PM
As Justin said not so long ago in another thread
This is my intention, I'd like to ask them the questions 'on the forum ' rather than feed the information back, so everyone can hear first hand. At the moment Sawgrass haven't actually joined so I will chase this and talk to them about the questions section again

It would be so nice to be able to ask them questions such as why don't they support other printers etc.

Justin
14-09-2012, 11:15 PM
I received an email from Sawgrass apologising and stating that they have decided they had to "re-consider their decision to post the announcements and updates as Sawgrass Europe"

I'm not sure if they still want to run with the questions and answers sessions and will be contacting them for further clarification. They asked that the thread created was removed.s

JSR
14-09-2012, 11:42 PM
i wouldnt blame them if they had given the negativity shown before they even got onto the forum. If sawgrass has pulled out personally i think its going to be a great shame. we are stuck with saw grass small format inks and as such from time to time we need a bit of support .
Take BMS as an example martin and scotty from bms post regually on this forum any problems if you cant get hold of their office post on here and its not long before someone from BMS answers now apply that to sawgrass what if you get no response from their office wouldnt it be better if you could then post on the forum for a response? and if the response didnt come well then we would all know that they are not upto much on customer service or if they did respond in a timly manner equally you would be reassured that you had good customer support. We must remember we are the customer and as such carry great weight no company wants a bad name its in their interest to help the customers i say give them the chance to do just this
We can't really compare BMS and Sawgrass on customer support issues. If you get don't get satisfaction from BMS, you can go to one of their competitors so it's in BMS's best interests to keep us happy. If you have trouble with ink from Sawgrass, good luck going to their competitor - because their patent ensures that there is no "legal" alternative. Suppliers of blanks need to keep in with their customers, Sawgrass doesn't need to do a thing.

purpledragon
15-09-2012, 09:47 AM
We can't really compare BMS and Sawgrass on customer support issues. .
it wasnt a comparison i used BMS as an example i take your point about competition though im not sure how you come to that from my post my point was that if they have a presence on the forum you have an additional route of contact one thats very public and their response can be seen by all forum members and lets face it no company wants to be seen to be providing poor service in a public forum ok so theres no legitamate alternative but you me and sawgrass know there are other alternatives legal or not and as such im sure sawgrass would rather encourage us to steer away from the other alternatives

WorthDoingRight
15-09-2012, 10:34 AM
Well, anyway you look at it it does seem strange to me that they have decided not to use the forum afterall. It would have given them a great PR opportunity and perhaps by having a presence here changed the opinions of many about the company itself. Well what is done is done.

Charlie_
15-09-2012, 10:36 AM
Well, anyway you look at it it does seem strange to me that they have decided not to use the forum afterall. It would have given them a great PR opportunity and perhaps by having a presence here changed the opinions of many about the company itself. Well what is done is done.

Gay sera sera ....couldnt resist that ...............

WorthDoingRight
15-09-2012, 10:50 AM
Gay sera sera ....couldnt resist that ...............

I bet you knew Doris Day before she was a virgin!

Charlie_
15-09-2012, 10:53 AM
I bet you knew Doris Day before she was a virgin!

Well Richard thats for me to know and you to ponder lol

JSR
15-09-2012, 11:08 AM
Well, anyway you look at it it does seem strange to me that they have decided not to use the forum afterall. It would have given them a great PR opportunity and perhaps by having a presence here changed the opinions of many about the company itself. Well what is done is done.
I guess I don't see what Sawgrass would get out of being more involved with their customer base. The questions would invariably be along the lines of "why is your ink so expensive?", "why don't you support more printers?", "why can't I use chinese ink?", "why aren't your printer-support/replacement options more transparent?", and "when does your patent expire?"

None of the questions that we may ask can be answered in a way that would look good on Sawgrass, because the answers would only show how unfair and expensive the current situation is. That is far from being a "great PR opportunity". Exposing themselves to a nest of vipers would be a very bad PR opportunity for them.

We're in a "tail wagging the dog" situation, and the tail isn't going to answer questions of the dog because the tail is already in control.

Ian M
15-09-2012, 03:33 PM
Well put Jonathan.

The main thing the vast majority of us aren't really Sawgrass customers are we, it's their suppliers who sell to customers who are really the Sawgrass customers.

I worked for a major bank & we had senior managers who always had an open door policy to everyone. You could just go & ask if they were free to talk too & the answer was always yes & you always got a direct answer to any questions you asked them. We then got new senior managers who were the opposite & if you wanted to ask them anything you had a process to go through. You had to submit your question to a team manager who would then pass it on to a middle manager who would then put in a request to the senior manager to see if they would see you. This could take a couple of weeks to get your audience with the senior manager if your request was accepted & in most cases it wasn't. In the end people just didn't bother anymore & what was a happy open work place quickly became a very unhappy work place with lots of unconfirmed rumours flying around. It really became a real them & us situation which is what we have with Sawgrass.

Sawgrass had a golden opportunity to interact with us all here but, I feel they have just stuck two fingers up at us all again. I do wonder what they are going to be like in two years from now when the patent has gone.

GoldRapt
17-09-2012, 11:31 AM
Well done Justin on trying to get this off the ground.

tanx
30-05-2014, 11:08 AM
The forum (and myself) have always made it clear that we will not discuss third party inks or support the use of them here, this is not something that has changed over the years.

Interesting quote Justin that surely defeats the whole point of an open forum !. Surely it is NOT illegal to discuss 3rd party inks? Or post reviews about the use of other inks ? It doesn't mean ANYONE has to go ahead and use any 3rd party inks, but it's nice to have an insight to peoples alternative setups etc to proove that Sawgrass are not the be all and end all of ink manufacturers. Do Sawgrass hold the patent for freedom of speech also lol ?. FFS That company have really put the fear of god into some people

pisquee
30-05-2014, 11:35 AM
Surely it is NOT illegal to discuss 3rd party inks?

Technically/Literally, it's not "illegal" to use non-Sawgrass inks either. There is no ink police that are gonna come and kick your door in at 6am and raid your print room.

(I use the "non-Sawgrass" term, as Sawgrass themselves are a third party ink manufacturer.)

tanx
30-05-2014, 01:37 PM
Technically/Literally, it's not "illegal" to use non-Sawgrass inks either. There is no ink police that are gonna come and kick your door in at 6am and raid your print room.

(I use the "non-Sawgrass" term, as Sawgrass themselves are a third party ink manufacturer.)

Thank god for that Pisquee - I haven't got a print room for starters !!! lol. Very true about Sawgrass also :)
Still doesn't answer the question of WHY 3rd party inks can't be discussed and are not supported on the forum as Justin stated.
Anyone heard of group purchase !!! thats the simple way round of getting cheaper Sawgrass ink :rolleyes:.
I am part of a group purchase on an aquarium site where we purchase phosphate remover in bulk for a much much cheaper price than buying from local stores.

pisquee
30-05-2014, 02:09 PM
Sawgrass sell exclusively through their dealers, and they are price fixed, so it's quite a closed market, that I doubt you'd find a way of a group buy.

tanx
30-05-2014, 02:45 PM
Sawgrass sell exclusively through their dealers, and they are price fixed, so it's quite a closed market, that I doubt you'd find a way of a group buy.

Definately locked down then , ah well i shouldn't really be surprised should i :rolleyes:

Joe Balanda
28-01-2018, 11:21 AM
Sawgrass are a good company as far as I am concerned. They will go out of their way to help. I have just bought an 800 off them and had questions. No problems at all. Having a collective voice with them will be good for the members and I don't think you'll need to worry about what's said in a polite manner.
good news Justin, I look forward to seeing how it goes
Joe

UK Printed Mugs
28-01-2018, 11:30 AM
Nothing like re-opening a four year old thread :cool:

Justin
28-01-2018, 12:16 PM
Lol. Yes, very old thread! Interesting to see it raised though and even more evidence of yet another broken promise from SG. They led me a merry dance over this demanding anything negative was removed instantly. It was just a way for them to continue domination but all they did was waste a great deal of my time.