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JSR
23-03-2010, 06:06 PM
I've never read of anyone else having this issue but I can't believe it's just me.

For quite some time now, I've noticed that regular 10oz (RN Coated) mugs exhibit various degrees of pitting in their outer surface.

http://www.mugsandgifts.co.uk/offsite/mug_flaws.jpg

You can't see these pits until you've printed the mug but then they show up as bold white dots. When you look really close, you'll see dimples in the mug where the white dots are. The white dot is caused because the paper can't touch the surface of the mug where the dimple is (I'm guessing the dye-sub coating is also missing from that area because otherwise *something* would transfer).

When you look at the transfer paper after taking it off the mug, you see a matching dark spot where no ink has transferred (the same kind of thing you get when you have an air bubble).

I've tried switching suppliers (more than once) but all I end up with is an ever increasing pile of wasted mugs.

Does no one else have this problem? If not, where do you buy your mugs?

accdave
23-03-2010, 06:56 PM
Not noticed it on any of mine. Get mine from BMS usually.

jennywren
23-03-2010, 07:17 PM
I don't have mugs from BMS ( that is NOT meant to be disrespecful ) and have never had pits, If you switched suppliers it just seems unlikly that it would happen from all of them, (not in less they all buy from the same suppliers.) It would seem sensible to buy from BMS as they had a recommendation. When I've had a few mugs that seemed iffy my supplier offers me a credit note, you can only ask, any good supplier I'm sure will offer that at least.

Andrew
23-03-2010, 09:05 PM
I go through a lot of mugs and you do very occasionally see a pit mark on a mug. Even then most of the time the gas process still takes to a certain extent and doesn't leave a clear white spot as in yours. Perhaps the pitting is making the coating bubble on that spot which will not then take the ink. They are very prominent white spots. Might have just been a bad batch but would be surprised if you get that often with the main suppliers.

John G
23-03-2010, 09:26 PM
I've had a few mugs from lovecut that have pits on them but the print always seems to cover them.

Cheers John

bms
23-03-2010, 10:23 PM
I think the pits/ spots are caused by dust in the factory that sprays the coating on the mugs. If the factory is dusty then the air borne dust particles stick to the surface of the mug and "pop" during the drying time, leaving a minute section uncoated which causes the spot when printing.

There are grades of sublimation mugs in the marketplace - A's, B's and C's. The C grades are grey/ white, straigh(ish) if you're lucky and lots of pitting. The B's are better and the A's the best (although I think it's almost impossible to guarantee no pits in hundreds of thousands of mugs). All mugs should be inspected prior to packing at the factory by the manufacturers, but the quality process depends a lot on who's checking what.

The main sublimation mug suppliers buy from only a few manufacturers in the Far East (China or Thailand) but there are hundred's of manufacturers of mugs for sublimation printing with almost as much variation in the mug size, thickness of ceramic, straightness, quality of coating etc etc!

JSR
24-03-2010, 01:06 AM
Thanks all for your replies.

I think fate just has it in for me, that's all. I must attract the iffy-mugs like a magnet. :cry: 8-)

AJLA
24-03-2010, 10:30 AM
I had a terrible problem from a batch I bought from somewhere, they weren't pitted but there were areas where the coating clearly hadn't covered the mug.
Shame you've had some bad batches.
I'm sticking with my BMS mugs as they have been far more consitent on quality for me.

GoonerGary
29-06-2010, 05:25 PM
These pin holes drive me crazy. Unfortunately there is no perfect supplier and each one will have their quality issues. Perhaps a quiet word in the manufacturers ear?

Andrew
29-06-2010, 05:30 PM
Where do you get your mugs from GG? This isn't that common a problem and shouldn't happen ongoing.

NASH
29-06-2010, 05:49 PM
here here Mandy i too think BMS are great

JSR
29-06-2010, 07:02 PM
These pin holes drive me crazy. Unfortunately there is no perfect supplier and each one will have their quality issues. Perhaps a quiet word in the manufacturers ear?
It seems from this thread that most people either don't have this problem, or don't notice it (I'm particularly picky). Getting suppliers to talk to manufacturers when we're the only two people to complain about it won't change anything. ;)

Recently I've been buying mugs from Revolution and haven't noticed this problem anywhere near as much as before. I'm only buying single boxes at a time right now because I don't want to be lumbered with loads of mugs that I can't use. Initial results are quite promising, though.

If you're having this issue, I'd recommend grabbing a box from Revolution and seeing if you have the same problem. They are slightly more expensive than the more familiar suppliers (particularly with the postage on a single box), but I'd rather pay 10-20p extra for a mug than keep throwing mugs away because of these awful white spots.

smartarts
29-06-2010, 07:22 PM
We have done ceramic transfers in a kiln that get what they call "sugaring", we were always led to believe it was defects in the glaze. If this is the case it could be that the suppliers who are coating the mugs with a sublimation coating are buying "cheap" mugs with too thin a base glaze on them. Customers should make their suppliers aware of the problem so hopefully they in turn tell the manufacturers.

GoonerGary
29-06-2010, 07:45 PM
BMS, I was having problems up until January until I took a break.

Recent batch appear to be better but not perfect.

bms
29-06-2010, 09:59 PM
BMS, I was having problems up until January until I took a break.
Did you contact us by email/ telephone at the time? If there are problems please let us know via our website or email us direct with a photo of the problem as we can't do anything about it if we're not advised and we in turn forward this to our suppliers for QC purposes. We have the occasional adverse comment, but in percentage terms of the volume sold each year it is extremely, extremely small. On each container with 50,000+ mugs there are going to be occasions where QC doesn't pick up everything. It is a labour intensive process as every mug is visually inspected prior to packing so human eye strain might have an impact and the odd one(s) get through :)

GoonerGary
29-06-2010, 11:22 PM
Yes I had mentioned the problem over the phone as I had quite a large number of unprintable mugs. It's not a problem that I had encountered with other smugs over the years although the Euro mugs were a lot straighter and had a better coating than anything that I had used before.

I still continue to use them despite the pin holes.

JSR
29-06-2010, 11:40 PM
On each container with 50,000+ mugs there are going to be occasions where QC doesn't pick up everything. It is a labour intensive process as every mug is visually inspected prior to packing so human eye strain might have an impact and the odd one(s) get through :)
The trouble with this particular fault is that you can't visually inspect for it. If the mugs have reached the packing stage, it's too late.

Just about all mugs have some form of "pits" and indentations, but some print fine because the ink migrates into the dimple anyway. Others don't print fine - maybe because the coating isn't in the "pit", I don't know why.

But the point is that you only know the mug is going to fail *after* it's printed. No one standing looking at mugs in box is going to know a bad one from a good one. I certainly can't tell one way or the other before I've printed it.

No way is anyone going to change their coating/inspection process when only 2/100 people see a problem. It's an extra expense that will generate very little return.

Andrew
30-06-2010, 10:09 AM
I have encountered this type of problem with some suppliers but have settled where I know I get decent supply. Having said that I am sure it is easy for one or 2 mugs to slip through the net for any manufacturer..

JSR - do you have any cracks in the mugs developing whilst heating on the ones you now buy. Loud pinging noises etc? That is a nice white mug and quite straight but they didn't seem to like the lay flat presses and would get regular cracks. The upright press didn't encounter the same number of problems. The unit price shouldn't be more expensive though.

JSR
30-06-2010, 11:20 AM
JSR - do you have any cracks in the mugs developing whilst heating on the ones you now buy. Loud pinging noises etc? That is a nice white mug and quite straight but they didn't seem to like the lay flat presses and would get regular cracks. The upright press didn't encounter the same number of problems. The unit price shouldn't be more expensive though.
Do you mean the Revolution ones?

When I first started out dye-subbing, Revolution seemed to sell the same mugs that Listawood sold but they later switched to a type coated with "Clear coat". I didn't buy any during the "clear coat" era. Today they seem to have switched to some other type with RN (Orca) coating. It's these ones that I've tried a couple of boxes of and they seem okay at the moment.

I haven't encountered "pinging" on mugs for quite some time (not on mugs from Listawood, BMS, or Revolution) - but then I invariably use my mug oven, so maybe I'm just not hearing them? If I recall correctly, the last time I heard "pinging" was when introducing a stone-cold mug to heat during Winter time (before I pre-heated them).

The price works out a little more expensive because of the higher postage and that I'm currently buying just one box at a time. If I satisfy myself with the quality of the mugs and buy in larger quantities, I'm sure it'll level off.

Kaz
30-06-2010, 02:06 PM
Do you have a link please to Revolutions website?

bms
30-06-2010, 02:33 PM
Do you have a link please to Revolutions website
I presume this is Revolution Transfers - a google search will bring them up KAZ.


other type with RN (Orca) coating
I'm pretty sure Ocra isn't RN - otherwise it would be called RN. I think this is a chinese/ thai copy of the RN coating.

Kaz
30-06-2010, 02:38 PM
Thanks Martin, found it :)

My orca coated mugs don't say RN on them, and I got them from TMT.

JSR
30-06-2010, 03:14 PM
Do you have a link please to Revolutions website?
Their sublimation range is quite small, so this link takes you to their mug page - http://www.revolutiontransfers.co.uk/products.php?cat=19

Delivery is £9.95+VAT

Ironically, I've just been printing two mugs for a friend. One was from the Revolution box, the other wasn't. The non-Revolution one has a white spot where there's a pit in the mug. The Revolution one does not. It's a small sample, obviously, but it's what I've come to expect.

JSR
30-06-2010, 03:30 PM
other type with RN (Orca) coating
I'm pretty sure Ocra isn't RN - otherwise it would be called RN. I think this is a chinese/ thai copy of the RN coating.
I've noticed 8" plates come Orca-coated these days. The coating is dishwasher-safe. Plates never were dishwasher safe but a few batches ago, a batch came with Orca labels on them. I had someone put one through a dishwasher for a number of runs and it came out fine. The old ones barely stood up to hand-washing. They're much better to print with than the old ones were as well.

Whether it's a "chinese copy" or whatever, I couldn't say, but Revolution do state that their mugs are coated in the UK.

If, as you say, Orca is different to RN and I get the pits with RN mugs but not Orca, it suggests the problem is in the coating (or how it's applied) and it's solved by using a different coating (or one that's applied by a different manufacturer).

Either way, I'm throwing away less mugs with the Revolution ones due to white spots. Obviously I'd prefer to go back to RN coated mugs from my previous suppliers but I'm not in this business just to top up the landfill.

JSR
30-06-2010, 03:33 PM
My orca coated mugs don't say RN on them, and I got them from TMT.
I've never seen an RN mug with an RN label on it, but Orca seem confident enough to have an Orca label put on each of their mugs (and plates, for that matter). No one who's not confident in their product is going to put their label on it, because they know you'll drop them like a stone if the product isn't up to scratch...

...as I will do in a hot second if I have problems with the Revolution mugs. ;)

Andrew
30-06-2010, 04:09 PM
The owners of Orca have supposedly insisted that the labels are placed on and I find it bit of pain. I only use the Sparta with the Orca coating and it comes from the same UK coaters. The Chinese owners of Orca do a full range of blanks so you might find more and more stickers on the way. The UK coaters bulk boxes are very good as well and the strongest out there which makes a difference. I bought some large Lattes from Listawood before, so a big heavy mug. The dividers of the box were the most mis-shapen and flimsy bit of card I have ever seen in a mug box. Many were broken coming in and when I tried to send the printed ones out evern more got broke. So many things to take into account when picking a mug supplier.

Kaz
30-06-2010, 04:22 PM
The mugs I'm using just now aren't orca coated, but I'm waiting on a phone call and will go check what they say on the bottom, if anything

Andrew
30-06-2010, 04:29 PM
All the mugs I have used have blank bottoms except the orca and tams from an era gone by.

JSR
30-06-2010, 04:43 PM
tams from an era gone by.
Can we go back to that era, please? 8-)

Andrew
30-06-2010, 04:52 PM
Yeah, the good old days when everything was simple.

Kaz
30-06-2010, 06:17 PM
I've got 5 dozen tams mugs upstairs just now :D

I got them on ebay, and there are a few boxes left

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tams-Durham-Mugs- ... 3f0078ec0b (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tams-Durham-Mugs-Made-England-/270590864395?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f0078ec0b)

Now, I know the sellers feedback is pants, but I got my order quite quickly

Ian M
02-07-2010, 03:07 AM
The white spots could be caused by very small water droplets when the coating is sprayed onto the mugs.

This used to be a common problem when spray painting. Water can build up in the air compressor & then this is forced out of the system through the spray gun. This used to be a big problem in such places as car body shops but, they now use filters in the lines to trap the water. You'd be amazed at how much water you can get out of an air compressor tank at the end of the day.

The reason why you can't see the faults is because the water droplet becomes solid as it is partly mixed with the coating & then pops with the heat.

I've had the odd few just the same at the very start but, now know who the good suppliers are. I buy my mugs from someone on Ebay & I haven't had one faulty mug off him yet. The last lot I bought off him the other day & the price was £65 for 72 mugs inc delivery. :D

xpert
02-07-2010, 05:14 PM
I've just bought 10,000 orca coated 10 oz mugs, were based near Milton Keynes, if anyone wants any, they can have them for 95p each, vat free and collect them, these are A grade, not the cheap rubbish that we've all had to buy recently. Lets get together and stop lining the pockets of the cheap import sellers, just drop me a line.

Andrew
02-07-2010, 05:33 PM
Line your pockets instead you mean? ;)

I could do them for 90p inclusive of vat..... or even 85p if I was in a good mood.

It's gonna get like one of those reverse auctions now.

John G
02-07-2010, 05:39 PM
Nice 1st post xpert - don't think you're going to get any buyers at that price :lol:
John

xpert
02-07-2010, 05:48 PM
Were talking quality, not cheapness, anyone can get cheaper, i can get mugs for 40p each, but what's the point, unless you want the grief that some of the people on here are getting.
Don't want to step on your toes, sorry, obviously you're doing very nicely out of the site.

Andrew
02-07-2010, 06:09 PM
I was talking like for like..... orca coated grade A. Not keen on them myself but looks nice, white and straight.

What do you do Mike? Obviously print lots of mugs by the sound of it but any certain speciality area?

Ian M
02-07-2010, 08:08 PM
Oh dear! I was praising the person I got my mugs off in my last post. I've just had a delivery & the new mugs have arrived in two of the poorest flimsiest boxes I've seen. I opened the first box took out a mug & it was cracked & chipped. It also looks like the two chips inside the mug had been stuck back on very badly.

So, looks like my wonderful mugs are now very much like the poor quality none of us want. Looks like I'll now be looking for a new supplier.

xpert
03-07-2010, 02:25 PM
Most of our mugs are for Motor sport and Equestrian, we get top dollar for them, but they want quality, that's the reason we've worked our way through the poorer quality mugs, all i wanted to do was get people through the hassle we've had in the past, it's not nice, especially when all your hard work ends up in the skip.
Same with printers, it took us 3 years of blockages and wasted ink to get away from the Epson's, now we use Ricoh, and my advice to anyone doing mugs on a small to medium scale is buy the e3300, will cost about £280 complete, on my first set of cartridges we've done 1200 mugs without one blockage or paper jam.
Mugs are only a small part of our business, embroidery and print are the main stay, anyone want a straight answer to a question, just ask, we've been through just about every problem going, that's why i'm not too diplomatic with suppliers, theyre only out for your pound at the end of the day.

smartarts
03-07-2010, 06:13 PM
Nice one Mike, your attitude is nice to see,

John G
03-07-2010, 08:01 PM
Hi Mike, Yes but by supplying mugs you have become exactly what your speaking out about "a supplier lining their own pocket". You may have excellent mugs but the price is too steep - i'd rather buy from xpres, BMS, transfer etc and have guaranteed quality and support if needed.

Thanks for the offer though - pop it in the member to member offers section and you might get a few sales - bring the cost down to a realistic price and you'll get loads of sales.

Cheers John

xpert
04-07-2010, 02:27 AM
Sorry mate, i probably mislead you a bit, i don't want to be a mug seller, just wanted to give people the chance to buy some decent ones, which was the main aim of this topic, let's face it, even the so called reputable sellers offload some pretty shoody goods at times. Xpres and support hardly seem to go hand in hand do they.

Andrew
04-07-2010, 11:41 AM
I know where you are coming from Mike but can't say I agree. Most of the main suppliers have decent mugs and do their best to ensure quality. Tarring them all with the same brush is not right. There are batches that come through now and then which aren't great. Whether you get the Orca coated mugs from the UK coater or the Chinese owner then I personally rank them as a medium quality mug. It is actually a better coating than the UK supplier previously used in fairness. I also know the cost and am assuming you go direct rather than through a supplier.

If you try to encourage dye sub printers to cut out the suppliers then where do people start getting all the other bits and pieces from as without their bread and butter lines like mugs there won't be many left. Without many suppliers there means far less choice of blanks and higher pricing. We are a very niche industry and the printers and suppliers need to work together.

xpert
04-07-2010, 12:52 PM
That's one way of looking at it, and probably true. My opinion is that it's a cartel, who keep the prices high, don't you think it's a coincidence when they all price the same goods within a couple of pence of each other.
I don't want to pay a supplier an extra 20-30p per mug, just so he'll stay in business, loyalty means nothing nowadays, even the Government would rather hand contracts to johnny forieigner, so as to save a pound.

Andrew
04-07-2010, 03:58 PM
Slightly ironic though with you offering the mugs at 95p inclusive of vat as there is a 20 - 30p profit there for you....... or atleast there should be unless you bought them over the odds.

I don't personally go for the cartel theory, just the cost of a grade A mug with dishwasher safe coating and then a sensible mark-up would generally place the main suppliers in a close price bracket. I think if anything, mugs are available a bit cheaper now than what they were a couple of years ago. Like I said before, suppliers need to be supported to encourage different products and competition as blanks are limited. It personally wouldn't make a difference to me as I print only a small selection of blanks and most of which I can buy direct due to the quantity but for many who print on a smaller scale then the suppliers are key.

Mike, it's always good to have someone on the forum who thinks a bit differently though so hope you don't think I am having a go at you. No harm in a difference of opinion and a bit of straight talking. I'd be interested to hear more on what you do.... mug presses/ oven, artainium/other, paper choice and so on. Don't know to many larger scale printers so opinions are always welcome........ even if they are wrong ;) (joke)