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lucozade
30-03-2010, 06:07 AM
Recently my son became very interested in dye sublimation, he hasn't sold anything he's made, mainly because it's not good enough, i supported him in this as it was something he likes doing. My son has learning difficulties and finds life very hard, the slightest thing can upset him, so as you can imagine dye sublimation probably isn't the best option,but it kept him happy. I should mention he has always collected mugs and magnets since he was about 8 years old when someone gave him a huge box of mugs and magnets ranging from chocolate bars to bands to TV programs. Just before Christmas we visited a carboot fair and he bought some magnets and mugs, the mugs are what i am going to talk about. Without telling you exactly whats on the mug because it's an on going thing but thought i'd mention this on the forum.My son decided in January to sell some of his less liked collection on ebay including some we bought on the car boot sale, about 15 mugs in total. sales were slow, who wants used mugs?? 6 sold second time we listed them though and he was quite happy he got a few quid each for them. Ebay removed three mugs, one was fair enough as there was no copyright on it, the other two I argued on my sons behalf that these other two mugs were real and had the copyright on the side and in the end they relented and we was able to list. here's where it gets bad, a few weeks after ebay removed the third mug that stayed removed we had a letter and an email from a soliciter in Manchester saying they was suing us for breach of copyright and passing off, if you don't know what passing off is then i suggest you look it up especially if your on ebay selling or producing mugs that have a design thats not yours. Here's the interesting part, we have only been members of ebay for about a year, we have sold about 50 items in the past, mostly household stuff, battery chargers, laptop mouse, foot spa, you know the kind of thing. Anyway the letter was official and worried me to the extreme that i immediately contacted a solicitor, costs alone would be £2000. A solicitor told me we was in serious trouble and that an out of court settlement he would aim to be done. this is ongoing and the issue has still not been sorted. the crux of the matter is that my solicitor thinks we may have a case because i have managed to obtain photo's of the boot seller with more items for sale, same design, also we hadn't sold the item,merely listed it for sale. We are not business sellers (something that has probably saved us more than anything), they tried to say we produced this item. clearly we haven't and by producing photo's of the seller we are probably in the clear. Here's an interesting part though, on ebay we have another account in the name of another family member, about 4 months ago we purchased some sub paper and a printer for my son to try and do his own stuff (as i said before we haven't had much success) however Ebay have given this company details of this other account. Nothing for us to worry about a we wasn't making mugs to sell, but they have tried to make it look like we have. However because we have only sold 6 mugs on ebay the whole time we are fine. it got me thinking though there must be hundreds of people making mugs and other items for sale on ebay with images that are copyrighted. was we merely unlucky to be selected or have we been targetted, who knows, what i do know is the thought of being taken to court and being humiliated has nearly split my family apart. we are not a well off family, far from it. The soliciter doing the suing has said he expects damages and costs and this could run into thousands. My soliciter has said other wise. 1) we didn't sell the item, 2) we have proof where the item was purchased, 3) we are not producing this item.

thought i'd post here, i mean lets face it could you run the risk or being caught in similar circumstances!!

AJLA
30-03-2010, 10:04 AM
My goodness, how unlucky, we have recently been visited by the Trading standars for a similar thing we were printing a heart with a cross in it to follow the Cornish theme, unaware thet recently someone had paid to copyright it.
After lettters and conversations later we have just removed the items and will no longer sell it.

Copyright is a minefield and a subject often discussed on here.

It appears you were very unlucky as I know of many people in my own town blatantly selling items in the shop windows which they shouldn't. I can't understand why in these circumstances you couldn't have received an official warning, if you were to ignore that and continue with it maybe that would be a different story....

Good luck to you and your family I do hope it goes ok, i'm sure it must be putting great pressure on you all.

Andrew
30-03-2010, 10:12 AM
I did post a longer reply or so I thought and didn't appear. Anyway, sorry to hear of the nightmare of a situation you have ended up in and sounds awful for you and your family. Hope it all sorts itself out as it clearly should never have got that far. Good luck.

lucozade
31-03-2010, 02:09 AM
thanks everyone, the situation still isn't resolved, i thought it had yesterday when it seemed they was willing to accept an out of court settlement of £750, not bad days work for someone sitting in an office, we didn't even sell this item and have ebay proof. Howeverthey have had second thoughts and feel we have more to answer for than that. I find it incredible that here we are with proof we haven't sold the item and we didn't make it and still it isn't resolved. My Soliciter has told me that These soliciters say they are working on a no win no fee basis, something important for me to mention on here i feel, why you ask?? well here's the issue for me, it means there are soliciters trawling the net looking for work, in other words say for instance they found any item clearly being sold and also maybe personalised on the internet/ebay. that they would then contact the copyright owner and tell them they could possibly win damages in or out of court on a no win no fee situation. how any of you could be in the same boat. Of course i have said it's me that listed, not my son, they don't care as long as they get the money, my soliciter is currently sending them copys of all paypal transactions, this should resolve it i hope.

accdave
31-03-2010, 08:15 AM
What sort of things are they suing you for ?

Andrew
31-03-2010, 10:22 AM
You shouldn't be paying any compensation when you have done nothing wrong. As far as you were concerned you purchased a legitimate mug and eventually sold it. Ebay is filled with people selling dodgy gear so they have plenty of real cases to chase if they want. Sounds like a very stressful time.

Kaz
31-03-2010, 11:28 AM
I don't think it's a case of lawyers trawling ebay to find copyright infringements.

Ebay have this programme called Vero, which is for the protection of intellectual property rights.

Here is a link that explains more

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/tp/programs-vero-ov.html

And just because your item didn't sell, or get removed, doesn't count for anything either, it's the idea that you tried to sell something that you don't have the resell rights on, regardless of the fact you bought it a car boot/market.

Ebay also provide a list of VERO holders, but it's not complete and ebay don't force people to register on the list, though there are a few I know of, and have their about me pages saved for future reference.

If oyu could provide us wiht more info on what was on the mug, I'll be able to help you more.

For example, football teams (MUFC being the prominent one) don't like ebayers reselling their items, or anything that links back to the club that they don't get a cut from.

UMBRO are very active about not having their items resold on ebay either, ther have been a few topics posted on the community boards about solicitors letters demanding 2k from sellers.

If you don't want to post on here what the item was, you can send me a private message and I'll help you best I can.

But I reckon it's a football related item, if the solicitors are in Manchester ;)

frizbee
31-03-2010, 08:03 PM
Please don't pay anything yet, the passing off rules are some of the hardest to prove and usually the fear of court action is enough to make most people stop and pay up.

To get a judgement in court they would haev to prove that you produced a fake with the intention of conning people into believing that it was an original, this is hard to prove and certainly you woudl have to be shown to be making a business of it for the court to take action against you.

Vero on ebay is there to protect rights owners, we are a vero owner on several lines and have used it several times to get autions taken off, we actually had one guy who vero'd us on a product that is our own licensed design as he had make cheap T shirt stickers and thought I was trying to take his business away. We unfortunaetly had to issue a cease and desist order and he did so we just let it go, as there is little point in huge legal bills if he has already stopped.

My advise is simple if you know it is an original licensed product then sell, if you have any doubts or you know for a fact it is not an original licensed product do not sell it online as you will eventually get in trouble.

To all remember that selling a fake does not always affect the huge company, it can be more devistating to small compnaies without you realising. Sponge Bob, Betty Boo, Hello Kitty are not made by the rights owners, people like us, buy a license for a large amount of money to make the product and sell it, we are the ones who get hurt the most as we cna't sell items if there are fakes of them out.

david

lucozade
01-04-2010, 05:46 PM
Hi, can't post what it is, been warned by my soliciter that it could affect any settlement if said post was found. I can tell you it was something connected to TV though and not a sporting company. The Mug looks official, even my soliciter said it looks fantastic and if that was made at home i'll eat my hat, his words , lol The soliciter company in question i know are very actively looking at EBAY for work. The VERO you mention, It was removed via vero but obviously the company printer screen shots before having it removed. Ebay also gave our account a warning. Here is something strange though, i have spoken to other ebay members i have contacted through another forum and they said normally a warning is flagged in your inbox, yes we had the warning but it wasn't flagged, it was merely in our in inbox and is now falling down the list.

lucozade
06-04-2010, 02:36 PM
finally settled, out of court, £625. They have also warned me that if they come across my son listing copyrighted items again they will take us to court and there will be no opportunity to settle. They said they are working in conjunction with Ebay and some other anti copyright company (can't remember name) to stamp out copyright theft. So one mug we didn't sell has cost us an absolute fortune, joke or what! I can now tell you the mug was a Dr who Mug, company BBC worldwide. I have also recieved a email from ebay telling me the account is under review, to be honest i'm not bothered about that. They have told me to look at the VERO copyright infrigements page. They mention companies that are pro active in making sure their copyright isn't stolen, Disney, Warner Bros, BBCWorldwide, BGL Group, and a whole list of others.

hope you all have better luck than my son, we're never listing on ebay again:-(

accdave
06-04-2010, 03:04 PM
Sorry to hear th efinal cost. Will be interesting to see how soon E-BAy remove the listings of the real cowboys

lucozade
06-04-2010, 03:55 PM
i know makes you laught really, there are three mugs currently on there with Matt Smith on, brand new doctor, ours had David Tennant on it. these three are obviously being made as well!!

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=p4684.m38.l1313&_nkw=dr+who+mug+matt&_sacat=See-All-Categories

laughable that we get done

AJLA
06-04-2010, 05:19 PM
Thant's an absolute joke!!!
I'd be spitting feathers!

accdave
06-04-2010, 07:11 PM
i know makes you laught really, there are three mugs currently on there with Matt Smith on, brand new doctor, ours had David Tennant on it. these three are obviously being made as well!!

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=p4684.m38.l1313&_nkw=dr+who+mug+matt&_sacat=See-All-Categories

laughable that we get done


Report them to e-bay and ask why you have been picked out/ victimised/ harassed ( delete where necessary ) :D

Kaz
06-04-2010, 07:28 PM
Ebay won't tell you why you have been picked out, as it's a breach of the Data Protection Act.

Ebay act on reports, they don't actively police their own site, but rely on members reporting infringements.

I'd go back and ask the solicitor why they haven't had those others removed, and if they give you some cock and bull story, I'd take it further, as they've just had over £600 from you for the same item

lucozade
06-04-2010, 07:37 PM
we haven't reported them, i don't like dobbing people in, you could say we was unlucky, but yes it really gets to me that we've been done for all this money