One for Pisquee and other "wide formaters"

[socialgiraffe]

Hi Guys

I think I have just won a contract to supply 1-2000 dye sub pressed items per month for a big national. Obviously I am very happy but am now looking at how to streamline the whole process so it is as fast as possible and also as cheap as possible. So have started to think that possibly wide format may be the answer and look to you guys for advice.

The items I will be subbing will only ever be black ink and I can fit three prints on an A3 sheet.

At the moment I am using a Ricoh GX7000 with Sawgrass ink which although trouble free (for me anyway) is (as we all agree) probably the most expensive way to print a dye sheet.

So if I went wide format what size printer would I need to get, what would you consider the best workhorse out there for this and if you are able to, what would you expect an A3 sheet to cost on such a machine. Obviously when costing you do not need to use Sawgrass ink as wide format opens up other suppliers.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[pisquee]

Firstly, Wow, well done on the potential contract!
If those numbers are going to be consistent, and especially if towards the upper end of the 1000-2000 scale, then I'd be wanting at least two large format printers to help with speed, but also in case of maintenaince/break down etc.
Only you know your budget for this project, so it's hard to say whether you should be looking at used or new. But in terms of wide format you'd need a 42" wide printer, not so much to be within the Sawgrass rules, but 42" wide paper rolls work out cheapest in terms of £ per square metre (I pay about 50p per square metre of paper for a paper which isn't available in smaller widths) and 4.5p per ml of ink. An A3 page would cost 7p, but as you will now be printing in papers which are 112cm wide, forget about standard sheet sizes unless what you are printing is an A3 sheet size, which you've said it isn't.... for instance, I can get 12 mug transfers across one strip of paper, giving a paper cost per mug of 1p.
Ink costs are negligible at these sizes of products!

In terms of actual printers we use an old Epson Stylus Pro 9600, which is 7 colours. There was production model above this called the 10600, which is the same width, but only 6 colours, less resolution but higher print speeds, and IIRC could hold two rolls of paper at a time. Depending on what you're actually printing and quality needed will dictate which machine you go for - there are 4 colour printers in similar models - 9400 for instance, which is a newer printer based on the 9800. Be careful with more recent models, as a lot need Light Light Black ink, which not many sublimation ink companies currently make.

If you are printing standard repeated designs/products, then you can easily lay out what you need to print in Photoshop. A RIP would allow more versatility in how things are layed out, and give you more control of ink usage and profiling, but adds to the expense, and we do without it.

We tend to print transfers in batches, and so store up transfer sheets until needed (have done this for a while and not had any problems in doing so.) As the page width is wide, it is most economic to fill the page, so either lay out designs which are the same across the page to print as a set, or group together designs which go together, or whatever works I suppose.

The printer can cut of the page horizontally after each job/sheet which saves you some cutting, but you'll still have to do the vertical cuts. It can help to print the product/design code above the transfer image to help in finding the right transfer.

[socialgiraffe]

Cheers Pisquee,

I used to own an epson 9600 which was a great workhorse and bomb proof (it survived an oil refinery explosion so I can say that with conviction). It was a great machine and I am used to working with them. I also have a Versacamm so know about the benefits of wide format in general. What I am particularly encouraged by is the cost per sheet. The majority of the work is going to be personalised safety wear in black only. I can make the numbers work using a Ricoh so switching to an Epson can only improve things.

Am going to sit back for the next couple of months and see how it all pans out. If the orders start to roll then I will be on the look out, but as you probably know, until the orders start rolling in then you wander exactly how many per month they actually means :-)

[pisquee]

Well, if you know the 9600 then you'll be fine - there's usually a few knocking around on Ebay, think there's a couple on there at the mo, and a 10600.

[Alastair@Xpres]

Good Morning Social,

I was about to lend some advice but pisquee has it covered! I am not aware of the technical specs of the 9600 or the similar models in the series but if you are interested in new models we have an 8 colour A0 and a newer 4 colour A0 machine geared for production in our range here at Xpres. If you have the time you could pop in and run some artwork through them?
I appreciate you probably will go for the Stylus range recommended by Pisquee but just in case I thought it best to extend the invitation.

Thanks and all the best with your contract

[Billc]

Hi, great problem to have!

I'm using an epson sc-f6000 dye sub 44inch printer - it's taken a while to get the profiling sorted out and there have been one or two teething problems but it's settling down now. I'm using the Wasatch RIP which I like very much but it was pricey. It's a simple CYMK printer. I haven't really done enough with it to calculate the media costs yet
The cheapest aspect is the ink - Epson's own at £80 per litre! That's the main reason I haven't done the media costings - I'm still on my first 4 litres of ink! On the down side I would add that the printer needs to be run at least once a week otherwise the nozzles take a while to clean.

[pisquee]

Yeah, Epson's own sublimation printers do appeal, to have a printer designed for sublimation with the manufacturer's own ink for the same price as a 3rd parties, you then have Epson's support and warranty. Do Epson have their own sublimation papers too? what price are they?

[socialgiraffe]

Am liking this Epson specific printer and inks idea....

[pisquee]

There was more info on them on T-Shirt forums when they came out, from people seeing them at trade shows in USA. A few problems in the early days with banding and colour issues, but seems to have been ironed out now. To have a complete system (printer and inks) with support from the manufacturer is a huge bonus, and getting away from the idea of using a printer that wasn't designed for sublimation is gone, I love they've stuck with the normal price per litre of ink that other manufacturers have. If you have the budget for a brand new printer for (wide format) sublimation, then this does look a good way to go.

[JMugs]

RRP £4795 plus VAT for 44 inch model......hmm.. not in my budget this week but does open things up a little.

Janners

[pisquee]

They also have their own new DTGs too!

[socialgiraffe]

To have a complete system (printer and inks) with support from the manufacturer is a huge bonus (http://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum/#)

That is exactly what is floating my boat.

And that an A3 Ricoh with Sawgrass inks costs in the region of 51p per sheet and Pisquee has said that wide format is in the region of 7p per a3 sheet, if I exclude footprint cost and service contract it should in theory pay for itself within a year :-)

[JMugs]

I was looking at the DTG at the Photography show. Very neat unit, nice print. The sales staff were quite amusing as they said the pre-treat requirement was annoying and it would be good if epson could get that bit sorted. Now that would be a game changer!

Janners

[Billc]

I asked Epson about paper at Sign&Digital last year. They weren't selling it in the U.K. then, not sure if they are now though.
They were selling Epson paper in the U.S. but not in the U.K. apparently. I'm using TexPrint HR at the moment.
I initially had trouble with a lack of detail in the blacks, spent a while playing with the profile and things are not too bad now.
It's difficult for me to come up with any sort of recommendation as the only other dye sub printer that I have experience with is the Ricoh GX7700 (with powerdriver) - that's been a great little printer so far. On a good day I couldn't tell the difference between the output from the Epson and the Ricoh (apart from a slight difference in the shadow detail of the blacks (the Ricoh is better)).

[pisquee]

Am surprised that the Ricoh is showing better results than the Epson. Was the profile you're using for the Epson created for the TexPrint papers or Epson's papers?

[Billc]

Hmm, the profiles originated from Wasatch. They have freely downloadable profiles for different media and substrates. I took the nearest and customised it. As the Epson was so new, there were only 6 or 7 for the SC-F6000. I think it's just a maturity thing. I guess what I should really do is generate my own profiles from scratch - yet more hardware though :frown:

[socialgiraffe]

Paul (a member on this forum) might be able to help you with profiles. Not 100% sure as I am not up on how to make profiles and whether it is different for wide formats but it might be worth a punt as he has all the kit and knowledge for profiling.

[pisquee]

Don't think Paul's system can generate profiles for using with a RIP, only if you're driving it through the print driver, but I don't think you can do this with the Epson dye sub printers, which they say you have to use with a RIP, which I think is due to it being a re-engineered model, and one of the cart slots isn't in use (IIRC), so the RIP helps get around this issue

[Billc]

I'm reasonably happy with the profiles I'm using now. I'll wait and see what turns up as the product matures and more people use it. At the moment I don't have enough throughput to warrant the hassle and cost of generating my own from scratch.

Do any of have experience of pressing large pieces of Chromaluxe? I have been doing a few 700x1000mm in white gloss aluminium. They are mostly ok but it's expensive to experiment. I followed Conde's recommendation for the first piece and it didn't go well. Now I am pressing for 2 minutes at 190c and the results are good except that I often get a very fine white border down one or more sides. It's very narrow and barely noticeable but annoys me when it happens. The press has a thick nomex blanket over the base and I suspect that it's something to do with how it compresses. My smaller adkins press has a lovely foam silicon base which performs really well. Sadly I can't source a piece 30x40 inches!

[JMugs]

I press the 600 by 400 and use 204c for 90 seconds, so the time appears about right...but not so sure on the temperature perhaps a little low.
Press wise I find it best to let the press come up to, then over temperature, drop back ..wait... then press so the temperature of the platen at the very edges is at full temperature. The point being the very edges dissipate heat.
Nomex I would have thought was fine.
Curiosity now are you running a 2 phase press or 3 phase?

Janners