Heat press not heating up

http://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum...tid=4473&stc=1http://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum...tid=4474&stc=1Hi Guys

I have an heat press that does not heat up at all.

There is power, the countdown works and the buzzer sounds - but the temp control does nothing.
I have checked all connections, taken out the transformer and put 9volts thru it and the light comes on and all contacts tested, only with a bulb though.

attached are 2 images, one is my controller (wired up)and the replacement showing connections, the other is the front of both - allegedly the same but as you can see there is a marked difference in the connectors - question, can the second connector be used, if so how do I wire it up given my cables !

my controller, apparently is no longer made !!

Any help or advice greatly appreciated guys !

Decca

What are the exact model numbers of the two controllers?

There are differences between similar models that could mean that they are not a suitable replacement.

I assume that the new controller came with instructions - or at least a key to the terminals?

I have a connection diagram for the new controller that you have, but if it's not compatible with the old one it won't work...

Is there 240V metering across the output of the controller?
What is the resistance of the element itself?

In our experience the main thing that goes on presses is the heating element iself, not the controllers

What pinout diagrams do you have for the two control modules?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pisquee

What pinout diagrams do you have for the two control modules?

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If that question was for me, then I have a diagram for the new controller, but since identical looking controllers operate in different ways depending on the model numbers, it's not helpful to offer advice which may lead to damage to the press or the new controller.

That's why I asked for specific model numbers for both timers, so that I was sure that what I was offering was correct.

If the first photograph was as good as the second, there wouldn't be an issue...

If the question wasn't for me, then nevermind ;-).

pisquee's question is quite relevant, he is asking for information not offering advice at this stage.. You have 3 sets of connections on the old controller but we cannot see the source for the 2 pairs on the left. I assume the pair on the right is for the heater temp sensor but may be wrong. If you post the pinout of the new controller we should be able to sort out how to connect.

Assuming the controller is just switching 240v then you could connect the heater directly to the mains and see if it heats up. Obviously there will not be any temperature control but at least you can feel if it gets hot.

Do you have a meter ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wayupnorth

pisquee's question is quite relevant, he is asking for information not offering advice at this stage.. You have 3 sets of connections on the old controller but we cannot see the source for the 2 pairs on the left. I assume the pair on the right is for the heater temp sensor but may be wrong. If you post the pinout of the new controller we should be able to sort out how to connect.

Assuming the controller is just switching 240v then you could connect the heater directly to the mains and see if it heats up. Obviously there will not be any temperature control but at least you can feel if it gets hot.

Do you have a meter ?

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I'm not the op.

I can tell you that on the original controller the two connections on the lower left are the power supply, the two on the upper left are the switched output, and the two on the upper right are the input for the temperature probe.

The issue is that the temperature input could be one of several types, though likely one of two - if these are not the same on the two controllers then there will likely be damage at worst, non function at best.

I know the pinouts for the new controller too, but I wished to check that the two controllers are compatible before offering the information.

Understood, perhaps the op will be back in touch !

Hi Guys
Appreciate the input !

will see if there is anything to id the controllers and post details or images shortly, nothing on fron or rear but there is on the side a label, although it is scratched on the old controller, WillD is correct on the connections, I'll post a better pic to show the colours of the cables, see if that helps, I know the first image is blurred, I'll do a better one, but there is no useful info on the front ;-(

http://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum...tid=4480&stc=1http://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum...tid=4481&stc=1http://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum...tid=4482&stc=1http://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum...tid=4483&stc=1

Apologies for the delay guys !

Pic 1 shows the current connectors and colours
Pic 2 shows current controller and the new one - the number across the top I believe is a licence number ?
Pic 3 is a label across the side of my current controller, not brilliant as it is scratched !
Pic 4 is the new controller - a lot clearer, if you understand it - obviously more connections which is my problem.

Now I'm an old fashioned engineer, and am tempted to send 240 of the finest volts thru the heating element to at least discount that as being the problem, the reason I doubt it is that neither the transformer (SSR) light comes on, nor does the controller, I am making the assumption that at least one of these might show signs of life if any current was getting as far as the platen !

any comments from your good selves always appreciated !!!

Decca

A multimeter would go a long way to answering some of your questions. Most 'old fashioned engineers' swear by them (and AT them!). :wink:

One other thought I had was that many presses have an integrated timer and controller, which could possibly account for the extra connections ?

Decca.

I do have a meter, naturally its down my workshop - will try to pop across tomorrow or bring it home Monday, along with my trusty 4lb lump hammer ;-)

Decca

The photographs unfortunately don't shed any more light on the situation.

The controllers will likely either be XMTE-2001 or XMTE-2002 - the difference is either a thermocouple or a resistance type temperature input.

As long as both controllers have the same part number you'll be ok.

The pinouts for your new controller are attached:-
http://www.dyesubforum.co.uk/vbforum...tid=4484&stc=1

So input on terminals 13 & 14
Output on terminals 9 & 10
Temp pickup on terminals 1 & 2

If a resistance type pickup - which I'd guess is most likely, then connections on 1 & 2 are not polarity conscious, if a thermocouple they will be.

The fact that you have no pilot is indicative of a controller failure, though that may have been caused by the element failing!

Probably worth doing a continuity & insulation & short circuit test on the element before risking the new controller...




Edited to add:-

Having looked again at the new photographs with my eyes switched on, I see that it's a XMTE-2301 - which is similar to the XMTE-2001 but with a time proportional output - maybe that means that it's a "learning" controller...

As it also says it's for a type "k" thermocouple temperature pickup.

There is little to be learned from what's left of the label on the old controller, but you can test the temperature probe by measuring its voltage output - about 1mV at 25°C, 4mV at 100°C and 8mV at 200°C - these are nominal figures as for them to be precise the "cold junction" of the thermocouple needs to be at 0°C, which isn't likely to be the case - but they are sufficient to check for a varying output if you should test the element by powering it up before installing the controller (providing that it heats up!).

If there's no voltage output then it's either faulty too (unlikely?), it's not a thermocouple or else there's an issue with the test method/apparatus...

Just a quickie, and one I should have asked earlier, in the centre of the old controller is a small resistor, neatly slotted into the middle between the connectors, this is not replicated on the new controller, but - in the box where I have all the bits for this project there is a round blue resistor that also goes with the new one, possible replacing the one on the old one ??

Its there for a reason, my big brother has suggested this possibly goes across 1 & 2 - it has 3KV printed on it, any thoughts ?

Decca

Quote:

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Originally Posted by decca591

Just a quickie, and one I should have asked earlier, in the centre of the old controller is a small resistor, neatly slotted into the middle between the connectors, this is not replicated on the new controller, but - in the box where I have all the bits for this project there is a round blue resistor that also goes with the new one, possible replacing the one on the old one ??

Its there for a reason, my big brother has suggested this possibly goes across 1 & 2 - it has 3KV printed on it, any thoughts ?

Decca

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I deleted my previous post as I'd found further information - your blue component is in fact a thermistor, and should go between terminals 2 & 3, to allow for the "cold junction" temperature correction to be applied by the controller.

Ok So this is where we are:

The controller at least appears to be working, the Thermistor is where it should be and not in the box ;-), I turned the heat press on, controller lights up and registers current temp - cold

Platen not heating up so ran 240 thru it direct (all other cables etc disconnected) result was that the heater immediately kicked in and the platen heated up ;-)

re-cabled as per instructions - including our little blue friend, the thermistor, turned on, all works ok as far as the controller operating and registering new temp, following direct 240 test, so no problems there.

only thing not kicking in is the transformer, no light on this, as I mentioned earlier in a post I had already ordered a replacement, if there truly is a god then that should arrive on the morrow and I can then try it !

Once again thanks for all your input, we are getting somewhere, I have learned a lot from you guys, and hopefully someone else might benefit from these posts !!

Any other ideas as to what could be preventing the transformer from working or could cause it to malfunction, perhaps the old controller caused a problem or vice versa, looks at moment like both components transformer and controller were iffy ?
feel free to chip in, but for now - I will await the arrival of the new one to try ;-)

Regards All

Decca.

Where does the transformer sit in this setup ?

Controller, Transformer, Platen !

AH! Your transformer isn't actually a transformer, but as you previously noted an SSR, which is a solid state relay. I didn't pick this up until I read back through the thread, which was prompted by your reply to Wayupnorth, as it didn't make sense to me.

In general SSRs have a pilot light to confirm that they have been triggered, which as you note, isn't showing.

So I think it's pretty safe to surmise that that's where the fault is...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by willd

AH! Your transformer isn't actually a transformer, but as you previously noted an SSR, which is a solid state relay. I didn't pick this up until I read back through the thread, which was prompted by your reply to Wayupnorth, as it didn't make sense to me.

In general SSRs have a pilot light to confirm that they have been triggered, which as you note, isn't showing.

So I think it's pretty safe to surmise that that's where the fault is...

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Though of course you could test this by checking for a voltage across the input of the relay when the press is supposed to be heating. They are usually DC and less than 50V, but prudence when testing is always good!

Another possibility is that the voltage that should be supplied to the switching contacts of the temperature controller is missing, in which case there won't be a signal to trigger the SSR...

This is certainly an interesting project, and once again very sensible advice, I will try the new "SSR" and see where we are, certainly moved forward a good bit and hopefully get this one nailed with all you guys onside its made life easier, Will post results from new SSR and see where we go from there !

Many thanks for taking the time to respond !

Decca

Just a quick catchup, not received new SSR today, sat by letterbox all morning ;-(

Can confirm however the ID of old controller as XMTE 2001, new controller already confirmed as XMTE 2301 !

hopefully have something more constructive to post tomorrow !!

Decca

Quote:

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Originally Posted by decca591

Just a quick catchup, not received new SSR today, sat by letterbox all morning ;-(

Can confirm however the ID of old controller as XMTE 2001, new controller already confirmed as XMTE 2301 !

hopefully have something more constructive to post tomorrow !!

Decca

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It will be interesting to see how well the new controller works relative to the old one - if it's set up properly (factory set I think, as these controllers are mostly used in similar applications) it shouldn't overshoot as much on initial switch-on, and will probably control better too!

Will post results as soon as I get new SSR and fit it,

Was checking and double checking connections today !

Stripped down old controller through curiosity today, nothing physically visible in there, although there is a ribbon connector that looks very ropey, found XMTE 2001 stamped across the smaller of the 2 circuit boards !!

Also e-mailed the factory that made the original and the 2nd controller for info, experience tells me I'll be lucky to receive a reply but always worth a shot.

Greatly appreciate the help from all you guys on the forum !

Decca

Well running late today, busy day so only just had chance to look at the heat press.

Installed the new SSR, still not getting the signal and no lights ;-(

So no further on, I'll have a proper look in the morning, cant be far off, we know the element works, we have life in the controller, just not sending the switching signal to the SSR.

Checked the out put voltage across the SSR, coming up at 241V

so problem is between the controller and the SSR !!

Back tomorrow !

decca

If there is 240V across the output of the SSR then that shows it's not closed, ie. it's broken the circuit.

That's as it should be when there's no heat demand - we can assume that there's no demand coming through from the controller as there's no illuminated led on the SSR.

The (new) controller only passes on the "signal" to the SSR via the two terminals that change state from open to ĉlosed when there's a demand for heat (terminals 9 & 10). The controller doesn't "forward" any of the power supplied via terminals 13 & 14 anywhere, that's only used to power the controller itself. So if there's no voltage present on terminal 9 or 10 (could be either depending upon how it's been wired) when the controller is NOT calling for heat, or on both terminals 9 & 10 when it is calling for heat, then that's where to look.

(Edited to add: if the trigger circuit is mains voltage you can check terminals 9 & 10 with reference to neutral or earth - if it's supplied via a transformer then you'll need to check it with reference to 0V on that supply.

I am of the understanding from earlier in the thread that you are confident and competant to test electrical circuitry - if you don't feel that both of these are true, then please disregard everything that I've written.

That's true for anyone else whom may be tempted to look inside a piece of equipment. I'm not advising or encouraging anyone to attempt fault-finding on live circuitry, and I decline all and any responsibility for any negative outcomes if anyone should choose to do so ...)

What type is the SSR? Does it have voltage ratings written on it? Data from the old one will do.

If it's an (extra) low voltage type there should be a tranformer and probably a rectifier too.

Unfortunately it looks as though you may not have needed some of the bits that you bought, though you did say that there was no pilot on the controller, so possibly a power spike fried a few bits in one go...

I have just added a file to the downloads section, under Essentials, it is a manual for the 2001 controller, not sure it will shed much light on my current problem but I always work on the premise that too much information is probably never enough !

Just a quick response, in full agreement about confidence and competence, I do have some backup from big brother, who has over 40 years sparky experience and helps and advises when he can. This thread is full of useful tips and advice to help most people, I have long since stopped licking finger and thumb before testing if cables are live !!

SSR DA 40
input : 3 - 32 VDC
output : 24 - 380 VAC

There is nothing else tucked away such as a separate transformer, its pretty much power, controller, temp probe, SSR, heating element.

going to be having another look later - see if I can provide you with any more info !

Not worried about any extra bits, none of these components are expensive, as long as youre only buying them once and not blowing them, and I am enjoying the experience ;-)

Decca

Quote:

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Originally Posted by decca591

SSR DA 40
input : 3 - 32 VDC
output : 24 - 380 VAC

There is nothing else tucked away such as a separate transformer, its pretty much power, controller, temp probe, SSR, heating element.

going to be having another look later - see if I can provide you with any more info !

Decca

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There's something I'm not seeing here.

Are both the new and the original SSRs the same type? Although not 100% sure from the photo you posted before, it appears that both wires from the SSR go to the switching relay terminals (9 & 10) on the controller.

That would to a degree make sense - particularly as you note that there's no transformer - if the SSR were a self powered type, as they derive their trigger voltage from the load.

The issue now is that SSR that you note isn't of that type, so we need more infomation to make progress...

Just out of interest are all these components packaged in a control box ?

Yes, Both controllers are exactly same model, input output voltage etc !!!

just as an aside, if I put a low voltage thru the SSR then it operates and the press will indeed heat up, albeit with no temp control - but it does work.

As you said in an earlier post, the problem is that the controller is not sending anything to the SSR !


hope to be in early today - to resume my investigations ;-)

Decca

Quote:

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Originally Posted by decca591

Yes, Both controllers are exactly same model, input output voltage etc !!!

just as an aside, if I put a low voltage thru the SSR then it operates and the press will indeed heat up, albeit with no temp control - but it does work.

As you said in an earlier post, the problem is that the controller is not sending anything to the SSR !


hope to be in early today - to resume my investigations ;-)

Decca

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Did you mean both SSRs are the same? Do they both have the input noted as 3 to 32V dc?

Do the two wires from the SSR input go to terminals 9 & 10 on the controller? ie. one in each?

Sorry, thought I'd replied to this one, mustn't have posted for some reason !!!

Both SSR's are exactly the same, same input (3 - 32)
2 wires going to 9 & 10 on the controller -

when I get in I'll have a look at the controller again !

DEcca.

One other question is is this a press that you've had working, that then failed, or is it one that you've acquired in a non-functional state?

Everything I've seen about XMTE controllers indicates that they have voltage free contacts between terminals 8, 9 & 10, which means with an SSR which needs an external voltage input trigger the system can't work as it stands.

Since the SSRs that you have need a dc trigger, there would need to be some circuitry somewhere to supply it...

This press came non working, been in workshop about 18 mths waiting for me to look at it !

Had very little use, if any - all looks brand new even now, always considered it was worth keeping if only for spares, but thought it was a worthwhile project rather than scrap it !!!

it is certainly the trigger that is missing, there is a transformer in the controller so I assume the circuitry is also there, I am certainly missing something very obvious here, received a copy of the manual for the old controller, going to look thru that tonight for some clues.

Note: I hooked the old controller up earlier, although the controller display stayed off, the heater did start to warm up - never did before !


Decca

The circuitry in the controller is largely (I would have said exclusively before your last post) to run the controller's internals.

I suspect that prior to your aquisition of the press someone else had attemped a repair, and had replaced the SSR with a different type, thus ensuring that it could never work until someone fitted the correct part again.

The fact that you note that the old controller caused the press to heat therefore is something of a paradox. Would you please disconnect the output of the controller and measure for any voltage between terminals 9 & 10?

Then check for any voltage between the input terminals of the SSR whilst the input is otherwise disconnected.

Then fit the new controller and check for voltage between terminals 9 & 10 on that one.

Report back your findings and I'll offer my definitive diagnosis :-).

Hi again !

Tied both controllers and the results are the same for both :

that is - there is no output on the connections between controller 9&10
there is also none on corresponding connections on the old controller !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by decca591

Hi again !

Tied both controllers and the results are the same for both :

that is - there is no output on the connections between controller 9&10
there is also none on corresponding connections on the old controller !!

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On that basis the press can't work as it stands - you have two options: either replace the SSR with a self powered input type (input voltage/current generated by the load) - (they are manufactured, but on a quick search I couldn't find one), or else fit a small mains to dc 5V or similar power supply to power the SSR input circuit.

Okay
Thanks for your time and your input on this, I can use DC direct to power up the SSR but I will lose the temp control as I am effectively taking it out of the loop - I had wondered about replacing this controller with a simpler Temp control unit - looks like the way forward is clear ;-)

Many thanks again to all of the help on here this week guys

Will post final result as and when !

Regards

Decca.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by decca591

Okay
Thanks for your time and your input on this, I can use DC direct to power up the SSR but I will lose the temp control as I am effectively taking it out of the loop - I had wondered about replacing this controller with a simpler Temp control unit - looks like the way forward is clear ;-)

Many thanks again to all of the help on here this week guys

Will post final result as and when !

Regards

Decca.

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If you put a dc supply in with the controls, and being careful to get the polarity correct, connect one side of its output to terminal 9 of the controller, the other side of its output to one input terminal of the SSR and a link wire between terminal 10 of the controller and the other input terminal on the SSR, the press will work as you'd like it to.