Trying to move away from Sawgrass...

I have been sublimating using Sawgrass for around 6 years with no issues until my 400 died and I had to buy the 500. I hate it with every fibre of my being. With the SG400, I had the Color Sync profiles so I could just press file > print and the colours were perfect - now I have to go through the Sawgrass SPM which makes everything smaller - so you have to remember to increase the size before sending it to print. My computer seems to send it to print in a really convoluted way and you have to send it to the SPM 3 times before it actually does anything and to top it off at the end of all that the colours are RUBBISH. Really dull and flat, especially the blacks. I've tried all the settings and faffed about with it so much I just need to find something else and stop wasting time.

I was recommended Ink Experts and getting an Epson but having just looked at the site, you have to check a box when you checkout that says 'I acknowledge that this printer is not compatible with Apple Mac computers & mobile devices'. So now I'm back to square one. Can this be right? I would have thought that most people were using Apple products. I have no idea where to go from here - any advice?

Thanks

Buy another sg400. We run four as no other printers match colour matching nor speed of bulk printing. There are usually one or two for sale normally. Apart from that then large format is only way to go unless you're not too bothered about colour perfection.

I’d love to but I can’t find one for sale anywhere new and none second hand near me 🫤

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Originally Posted by UK Printed Mugs

Buy another sg400. We run four as no other printers match colour matching nor speed of bulk printing. There are usually one or two for sale normally. Apart from that then large format is only way to go unless you're not too bothered about colour perfection.

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Originally Posted by AngieF

I would have thought that most people were using Apple products.

Thanks

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That's quite an assumption to make. Why would you think that? Windows PC's are by far the most popular and will support nearly all printers currently used for sublimation.

Unless you have a particular reason to want to stick with Apple I'd suggest Windows and Epson as the way forward for you. A refurbished PC or laptop, or even a new mini PC is cheap and will be more than adequate for sublimation.

I have a pc that I have to use for another printer and I don’t like it. When using photoshop and illustrator as much as we do Macs just work better. I don’t want to change my whole set up just because of Sawgrass

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Originally Posted by webtrekker

That's quite an assumption to make. Why would you think that? Windows PC's are by far the most popular and will support nearly all printers currently used for sublimation.

Unless you have a particular reason to want to stick with Apple I'd suggest Windows and Epson as the way forward for you. A refurbished PC or laptop, or even a new mini PC is cheap and will be more than adequate for sublimation.

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The bigger question, if anyone knows, is what is the actual problem with OSX and ICC profile handling, and has it not been fixed yet?

Is this why the Epsons don’t work with Mac’s? Or is it why the colours are so abysmal with the SG500?

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Originally Posted by pisquee

The bigger question, if anyone knows, is what is the actual problem with OSX and ICC profile handling, and has it not been fixed yet?

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I'm not a Mac user, did dabble once but due to these limitations didn't go much further.

I'm wondering what the issues is with the Mac OS, is it that it doesn't accept or work with the profile? We use a very basic RIP software to control multiple printers and it simply applies the profile at that stage. We can save from anything as a jpeg and drag/load into the software and it works a treat, no need to set up specific software.

I'm wondering if this could be a quick fix? yes, you would have to export images and not print direct but it adds seconds.

Getting away from SG is a very good idea, as many thousands have in recent years but appreciate you need a Mac solution. I'd consider using Mac again if printing was easier.

Just checked and the software is available for Mac and even has a Photoshop plugin |I wasn't aware of. I'm downloading the trial now as it's slightly different to my version.

This is the thing - I have no idea why exactly Macs don't work with the Epson products, in fact I had no idea any of these issues with the later Sawgrass models - I've been in blissful ignorance for the last few years happily sublimating with absolutely no issues and now I'm totally stuck!

Interested to hear how you get on with the rip software - please keep me posted. I have no idea how I'm going to continue working at this rate so looking to investigate any solution!

It does seem odd, ICC profiles are universal, photoshop is available for OSX obviously, and so are the Epson drivers.
So where are things going ŵrong, and are they still, or have Apple fixed it?

I've dropped you a quick PM with a link to try the software. Clearly we need to clarify the support on the Epson through the Mac, I'm assuming that Ink Experts can't offer their support (just PC) but no reason why the printer shouldn't work?

Be good if InkExperts could chip in here with an explanation on what the issue is with OSX.

Good idea, I've tagged them into the thread.

I had emailed them and received a response yesterday saying:

'Macs that have been updated past Catalina can no longer make use of ICC profiles correctly'

and advising against one of their Epson bundles if using a Mac unfortunately. When I updated to Catalina my prints on the Sawgrass SG400 went completely haywire so I know it was an issue. I was sent the Color Sync profiles to use with it though and from then on it was fine - so it recognised and utilised those profiles ok so I don't know why it can't recognise other profiles. I'm now updated to Ventura and was still using these profiles with no issues - until I upgraded to the SG500 ��

How do everyone? It's Christian from Ink Experts.

Happy New Year to you all!

The Mac conversation is a long and arduous one, so I'll try to condense it down as best as possible.

Mac update OS every year, and in doing so always change the way printers operate thanks to some new fangled code.
This wouldn't be an issue if Apple sent out an SDK of these changes to various manufacturers before release so they can develop new drivers and make sure products work as intended on day one.

However this doesn't happen, and every September we would be imploring all Mac users not to update their machines as it would cause colour issues, or would completely wipe out their drivers leaving their printer useless.

The wait for new drivers to be developed could take as long as 6 months (here's looking at you 1500W), and caused grief for all parties involved.

We'd do our best to work around this every year, until one year Catalina completely messed with us.

Apple changed the directory that profiles needed to be installed to, and it took some figuring out, even by Adobe!
On top of that, the old drivers went haywire thanks to a shift to 64bit and new drivers were required to ensure the printers worked as normal.

Manufacturers couldn't keep up with the new changes, and drivers took a long time to come out which left everyone who had updated stuck with an expensive paperweight. Bad times.

It took 6 months, multiple updates, and long hours to get everything working as normal again, and we did it, despite my thinning hairline. Good times.

But, just as we did they released the next version of OS... Big Sur. Dark times.

The big kicker with this one was ColorSync, Apple's colour handling program, would no longer switch off entirely to allow an ICC full control over what was being printed, and this is still occurring in the latest version of OS.

Oh, you can click to turn it off in nearly all print programs, but check your system logs. That bugger is still running.

The next bit is speculation on my part, but it comes from 3 years of personally testing all updates on our Mac with an ET2714 that we get perfect prints out of from Windows.
We use this to compare how prints should look, to how a Mac makes them look.

So...

ColorSync now "helps" photographers get the best print quality out of their Mac by adjusting prints on the fly.

That's great when your final product is a printed sheet of paper, but when your actual final product is a sublimate that has ink transferred to it from that printed sheet, we run into an issue.

When printing anything with a sublimation printer, your prints have been adjusted by ColorSync to make your printed sheet look "nice" when it comes out, but when you press this to your mug/t-shirt/acrylic/etc, those colours change drastically and no longer look accurate.

The whole purpose of your ICC is being wiped out due to what the program thinks is best, and there's nothing we have found that you can do about it natively.

For 3 very long years of testing...

Don't get me wrong, we have found work arounds because that's what we do, but those work arounds aren't what we would deem accessible for end users, and require a fair bit of tech savviness.
They're a pain, and require you to install virtual desktops or dual boot your system into running Windows, and really, at that point why bother?
A Windows laptop can be picked up cheaper than a Virtual Machine program and Windows license.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

We still have our coffee stained Macbook, running the latest updates, and I'm still testing not only different software and updates, but with profiling directly on the Mac trying to find some way of getting these things to work natively again.

It's got to be possible, as Sawgrass have their PM working on Mac, but if you're saying colours on this are awful now too I still have my doubts that this problem can be overcome without help from Apple.
Plainly put, you've got a snowballs chance in hell of getting them to lift a finger for the likes of us.

TL;DR

Printers physically work on a Mac as the drivers are available, but colour correction using an ICC does not work.

ColorSync refuses to shut off entirely and messes with your colour correction.

You can manually alter settings in your driver to achieve passable prints, but this changes with each print and is a long process to keep repeating. It's not recommended.

Running Windows on your Mac is an option, but kind of defeats the purpose.

For all of these reasons, and more I've not gone into, we had to make the hard choice of discontinuing Mac support as of November 2020.

I'll continue to work on the issue, but I can't with good conscience tell you all a fix will come soon, or even at all.

To save everyone a headache, and to keep what little I have left of my hair, I wholeheartedly implore sublimation users to use Windows until that fabled day of Mac support comes.

Brilliant response Christian, thank you for taking the time to do this.

I don't want to open up the whole Apple/Windows debate...who am I kidding of course I do! but it does leave me questioning why users would be loyal to the OS when Apple are making it so very difficult for their customers.

I guess if you must design on a Mac you need to export to a PC or as Christian mentions, run Windows inside your Mac OS which always makes me chuckle :-)

Hi Chris

Thanks for this - you've explained it very succinctly. It's so frustrating for us, God knows what it must be like for you having customers asking for help all the time!

It's so annoying when you've been working for years and trying to run a business only for something to go so wrong - I don't think Sawgrass have helped with forcing people to use the SPM. I am totally set up on Macs, I much prefer them to PC's, I have to have a PC set up for another type of printer and software and I hate it - it's so clunky. But we don't use this set up that often so it's ok to just transfer the files when we need to but for sublimation it would be way too much hassle. Looks like I'm going to have to look into getting rid of one of the Macs and setting us up on a decent PC.

Thanks again for your help

Hello there,
Does this mean that if I run macOS Mojave (10.14, the final macOS that runs 32-bit app), say under Parallels, would give me the ability to apply ICC or to have better print output?

My understanding on ICC for macOS Catalina (10.15) and later needs to be under users' profile.
~/Library/ColorSync/Profiles

If you're using Mojave then colour correction still works as intended.

You may be limited to the models of printer you can use due to drivers/DMG, but you can follow our Mac guides here;

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...skGdQqIzY9Hdah

Thank you InkExperts,
Is there an ICC for Sawgrass SG-1000?

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Originally Posted by antony

Thank you InkExperts,
Is there an ICC for Sawgrass SG-1000?

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Sadly not, Sawgrass SG500 and SG1000 printers cannot use any 3rd party inks or even icc profiles. These models have an integrated software and firmware system that prevents the use of 3rd party inks. If the printer has 3rd party inks installed the user cannot use the VPM print software provided with the printer, with SG400 and SG800 models (the older models) this is not an issue, Photoshop or Affinity can be used to bypass VPM and allow the printer to print using 3rd party inks and icc profiles.

With SG500 and SG1000 printers using alternative printing software such as Photoshop or Affinity leads to extremely poor colour quality and accuracy regardless if an icc is used or not, this is something built into the software and firmware to try to stop the use of printing with 3rd party softw2are in a bid to work with 3rd party inks.

In short Sawgrass have SG500 and SG1000 printers fully locked down to their inks and software.

We have seem 3rd party inks available and we have been offered them, physically they plug in and 'work' but because the VPM software cannot be used the printer is rendered useless in reality.

I hope this explains things.

Thanks, Alex

Thank you Alex for the detailed explanation.

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Originally Posted by InkExperts

With SG500 and SG1000 printers using alternative printing software such as Photoshop or Affinity leads to extremely poor colour quality and accuracy regardless if an icc is used or not, this is something built into the software and firmware to try to stop the use of printing with 3rd party softw2are in a bid to work with 3rd party inks.

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When you say Photoshop or Affinity as printing software, do you mean print directly from those as in using the print settings of Photoshop or Affinity?

What if I print directly from Photoshop's Print Plugin (without exporting PNG), and use Sawgrass Print Manager, is it still good?
In other words, under Print dialogue, select SG1000, then under PDF drop down area, select "Saw Print Manager," which goes to Sawgrass Print Manager. (As mentioned in the last section of https://care.sawgrassink.com/hc/en-u...t-Guide-MacOS- )

Ok so those of you still following my battle with the SG500 - can I ask you to take a look at this test print? Does it look right to you? I never did one on my 400 so have no idea what it's meant to look like. I've been going back and forth with Sawgrass about the quality of the printing from the printer - I simply refuse to believe it can be a case of just bad colour management. As well as having horrible, faded colours they are really mottled. The blacks aren't black and there is no depth to the colour. After a lot of to-ing a fro-ing, they printed out a design I sent them on their printers and sent them to us to press along with some blank sheets so we could rule out press/paper issues (I knew it wasn't as everything was FINE with the 400 - the only thing that's changed is the printer). These looked great, just as they used to but surprise surprise, the ones printed on ours looked rubbish. They sent us new inks and instructed us to do 5 rounds of flushes to get the new ink flowing and there has been absolutely no change in the quality of the print. So it's not the ink, it's not the settings as the file printed fine for them, it's not the paper and it's not the press.

Once I had got the new inks up and running I printed this test image and was really shocked at how bad it looked. The black is brown and it looks really 'dimpled' - it looks like it will press with the terribly mottling we are experiencing. Having never printed one, I'm interested what you think as I know things can look wildly different on the paper to how they press.Has anyone printed a test image they can show me to compare?


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Originally Posted by AngieF

Ok so those of you still following my battle with the SG500 - can I ask you to take a look at this test print? Does it look right to you? I never did one on my 400 so have no idea what it's meant to look like. I've been going back and forth with Sawgrass about the quality of the printing from the printer - I simply refuse to believe it can be a case of just bad colour management. As well as having horrible, faded colours they are really mottled. The blacks aren't black and there is no depth to the colour. After a lot of to-ing a fro-ing, they printed out a design I sent them on their printers and sent them to us to press along with some blank sheets so we could rule out press/paper issues (I knew it wasn't as everything was FINE with the 400 - the only thing that's changed is the printer). These looked great, just as they used to but surprise surprise, the ones printed on ours looked rubbish. They sent us new inks and instructed us to do 5 rounds of flushes to get the new ink flowing and there has been absolutely no change in the quality of the print. So it's not the ink, it's not the settings as the file printed fine for them, it's not the paper and it's not the press.

Once I had got the new inks up and running I printed this test image and was really shocked at how bad it looked. The black is brown and it looks really 'dimpled' - it looks like it will press with the terribly mottling we are experiencing. Having never printed one, I'm interested what you think as I know things can look wildly different on the paper to how they press.Has anyone printed a test image they can show me to compare?


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Hi Angie,

We don't deal with Sawgrass printers directly, but did supply Ricoh printers (what Sawgrass are based on) years ago. Looking at the test print image you attached it does look 'about right' to me. The test print image will print at 'speed priority' setting so it swill always look quite poor in honesty. It looks very similar to how the SG400 printed its test print.

Which type of paper did you print on when printing the test image? Was it plain copier or dye sub paper? Plain paper will worsen the result due to the lack of coating on the surface, the ink will bleed more and appear more faded / washed out.

The SG500 printers (in our experience and opinion) MUST be used with genuine Sawgrass inks and in conjunction with the VPM print software. I can see you're using the genuine inks but are you printing form the VPM software? Or are you printing form 3rd party software such as Photoshop or Serif etc?

The SG400 printer could use 3rd party software and also 3rd party icc profiles without issue. However, the SG500 MUST use the Sawgrass print software in order to print well. We have tested SG500 using 3rd party software and the print will go form being fine (with Sawgrass software) to being extremely poor (faded, lack of colour, lack of accuracy) when printed form 3rd party software, we tested both Photoshop and Serif with the SG500.

We found that using 3rd party software caused the printer to print poorly without any explanation. The only factor was the change in software. We later found that the firmware within the printer caused this. Another way that Sawgrass helps prevent the use of 3rd party inks or software being used with their printers.

With the lack of ability to use 3rd party software this also prevents the use of 3rd party icc profiles as well.

The SG500 obtains its colour management from the Sawgrass software via inbuilt profiles. So, if you are using their software and inks, in theory it should be printing well without issues. If this is the case I'd definately look to return it to the supplier.

If you're using 3rd party software, its likely this is the cause of the issue.

I hope this helps.

Alex

Regarding your comment: with SG400 and SG800 models (the older models) this is not an issue, Photoshop or Affinity can be used to bypass VPM and allow the printer to print using 3rd party inks and icc profiles.

But how do I bypass? I just recently switched my SG400 to a 3rd party ink and I'm not getting the good prints that I used to, my greens are yellow...
after some research I've learned that might have to do w/ ICC profiles? But I'm still learning, which is why I'm here.. this looks by far to be the best forum I've found..
I've watched some tutorials about how to change the ICC profile - but where do I get the ICC profile? I'm using Printers Jack ink w/ the SG400. I haven't had any luck finding out how to contact Printers Jack. I'm guessing calling Sawgrass to tell them I've changed probably isn't the best idea? though the machine has been out of warranty for some time now..

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... after some research I've learned that might have to do w/ ICC profiles?

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It has everything to do with ICC Profiles!

Your ink supplier should be able to supply you with the correct ICC Profile for their ink, usually free of charge.

Failing that, you can get someone with the necessary equipment to make an ICC for you at a nominal cost. Personally, though, I would ditch Printers Jack and find a more suitable supplier who will email you a free profile.