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  1. #11
    Administrator Justin's Avatar
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    And why is that Paul?
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  2. #12
    Senior Member bms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    Some of the things we've said might not sound too favourable to them. I just said what I said so that we don't cause you any trouble with them...


    ...maybe I should have held my tongue on that one, too...
    I find it strange that sentiments such as this surface (not just JSR but other posts). As soon as anyone types something in this forum it is opened up to the world and remains in the virtual environment forever (cached, copied etc etc). So what makes anyone think that something they've said previously hasn't already been read by someone from Sawgrass (as a guest or logged on as a member under a pseudonym). If anyone was afraid of sharing their opinion then doing so on an open forum is a strange way of showing this!

  3. #13
    Senior Member JSR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bms View Post
    I find it strange that sentiments such as this surface (not just JSR but other posts). As soon as anyone types something in this forum it is opened up to the world and remains in the virtual environment forever (cached, copied etc etc). So what makes anyone think that something they've said previously hasn't already been read by someone from Sawgrass (as a guest or logged on as a member under a pseudonym). If anyone was afraid of sharing their opinion then doing so on an open forum is a strange way of showing this!
    I only need to draw your attention to a certain mug torture test to remind you of how heated the best of intentions can become when something is done or said that doesn't directly favour a supporter of this forum. Had this been a truly independent forum with no direct support from suppliers, I would not have requested the thread be deleted.

    Given how protective Sawgrass are and how limited the "authorised" options are, I see every post that doesn't use an authorised printer and authorised ink becoming just as heated. This forum has already gradually evolved into one in which non-Sawgrass inks cannot be discussed. Next it'll be non-supported printers that can't be discussed. How soon before a list of "restricted topics" becomes required reading?

    Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but it just concerns me that the original intention of having a "free and independent forum" is gradually being eroded away. If I'm the only one that's concerned about this, then please just dismiss me as being paranoid. The voice of an end user is but a small one compared to the importance of suppliers and manufacturers.

  4. #14
    Administrator Justin's Avatar
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    The forum (and myself) have always made it clear that we will not discuss third party inks or support the use of them here, this is not something that has changed over the years.

    To the best of my knowledge (and please do correct me if I'm wrong) there is nothing to stop you using non supported printers other than the fact that they are just that, on supported. It's the inks that have the patent applied not the printers.

    One reason for opening up this communication is to discuss the use of other printers and possibly somewhere down the line we may just be able to work closer with Sawgrass on future products. I'm sure they have an extensive R&D dept. but having access to everyday users that can test products over different terms is certainly going to be of interest.

    I really expected members to see this as a positive development. I would appreciate it if we could give this a chance to get off the ground and see how it develops before jumping to conclusions, I genuinely think you'll find this a very useful section.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member JSR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post
    I would appreciate it if we could give this a chance to get off the ground and see how it develops before jumping to conclusions,
    That's okay, I had already intended to keep my mouth shut about my concerns but I thought that Martin deserved a reply so that he would understand where those concerns are coming from. I won't be saying another potentially-negative word on the subject.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Ian M's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]This should prove to be a very interesting relationship as it develops.[/QUOTE]

    I think that it could be interesting in the way that someone of us will be very wary of them. The reason for this is that some of us have heard about some of the tricks they have pulled over the years such as threats to suppliers etc. To be honest I just don't like the way that they have operated over the years & I'm always going to doubt if they have now changed.

    As for naming 3rd party ink's on here why can't we mention the large format sublimation inks made by other manufacturers that are licensed by Sawgrass? I used to try to help new members etc on here via PM telling them what I used & where I got everything from but, now I don't in fear that I could be passing everything on to a spy from Sawgrass pretending to be someone else. I joined this forum to be part of a community of like minded people not to play cloak & dagger with an ink manufacturer. Perhaps Sawgrass may like to change their name to Damocles & someone could supply them with a sword to hang over us because, that is what it feels like.

    I know I'm cynical but, I don't think anything we suggest to them will ever get past the idea or suggestion stage. I do think it strange that they support a Brother DTG printer but, not any Brother desktop printer. What I'm saying is they are always going to listen to printer manufacturer's & not us.

    I have always thought a forum to be a standard function as a marketplace & a gathering place of like minded people & a place of discussions and debates etc. yet we can't discuss this subject in the way some of us would like.

    Didn't we have a printer manufacturer wanting to hear comments & be asked questions on here a little time ago? I asked a simple question & never got a reply back from them. Where are they now? I rest my case M'lud

  7. #17
    Super Moderator Paul's Avatar
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    +1 ^^^^

    Same here. I dont think they will listen to joe public what he got to say as long as they hold the patent. They might do when they losse the patent but not now.. My personal point of view is to NOT allow ANY ink manufactures on the forum. not only sawgrass but NONE of them. my 3p if that matter.

    PAul

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  8. #18
    Administrator Justin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian M View Post
    I think that it could be interesting in the way that someone of us will be very wary of them. The reason for this is that some of us have heard about some of the tricks they have pulled over the years such as threats to suppliers etc. To be honest I just don't like the way that they have operated over the years & I'm always going to doubt if they have now changed.
    We could all dwell on the past Ian but personally I prefer to look towards the future with a positive outlook. You say you've 'heard' about these tricks over the years, I've also heard stories....usually form companies who aren't happy that they can no longer supply (often) inferior ink because they are infringing the patent. Sure, we could just accept that all of these stories are true and they'll never change, but honestly? What good will come of that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian M View Post
    As for naming 3rd party ink's on here why can't we mention the large format sublimation inks made by other manufacturers that are licensed by Sawgrass? I used to try to help new members etc on here via PM telling them what I used & where I got everything from but, now I don't in fear that I could be passing everything on to a spy from Sawgrass pretending to be someone else. I joined this forum to be part of a community of like minded people not to play cloak & dagger with an ink manufacturer. Perhaps Sawgrass may like to change their name to Damocles & someone could supply them with a sword to hang over us because, that is what it feels like.
    No-one has said that you can't discuss large format inks at all. The fact remains that they shouldn't be used in small format printers, that's the point. Does everyone really believe Sawgrass have never visited this site?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian M View Post
    I know I'm cynical but, I don't think anything we suggest to them will ever get past the idea or suggestion stage. I do think it strange that they support a Brother DTG printer but, not any Brother desktop printer. What I'm saying is they are always going to listen to printer manufacturer's & not us.
    When did you last make a suggestion to them Ian and what was their response? Personally I recently approached them with the suggestion of getting their input to help our members further and possibly work together for the future. they have been nothing but positive over this, let's give them a chance first shall we?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian M View Post
    I have always thought a forum to be a standard function as a marketplace & a gathering place of like minded people & a place of discussions and debates etc. yet we can't discuss this subject in the way some of us would like.
    I'm afraid this is down to the patent and unless you're looking at challenging this there really is little point in going over old ground. Debates are all good and well but the forum isn't primarily here for that, it's here to help new and old users get the best from their equipment whilst remaining within any legal agreements that have been put in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian M View Post
    Didn't we have a printer manufacturer wanting to hear comments & be asked questions on here a little time ago? I asked a simple question & never got a reply back from them. Where are they now? I rest my case M'lud
    Which manufacturer was this? Do you refuse to use their equipment due to their lack of co-operation?
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  9. #19
    Administrator Justin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    .....I dont think they will listen to joe public what he got to say.....PAul
    Well, they've already indicated that they are willing to listen and indeed discuss matters with me, I see no reason for them to ignore us.
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  10. #20
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    This section appears to have disappeared from the site ... did Sawgrass change their mind on participation?

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