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  1. #1
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    Large Format vs Small Format Pricing/Set-up costs

    Not sure if anyone has posted this before, but I was doing some thinking on the rough pricing up for new set-ups.

    For this, let's assume that Sawgrass' patent is all they claim it to be, and that there is absolutely no way you can use large format bulk inks in a smaller printer.

    So, firstly let's look at a typical modern mugs/iphones sublimation printer system - similar to those used by many members here:

    (All following prices are inc VAT but ex-delivery)

    Ricoh SG3110DN (with pricing from BMS)
    Printer= £311.94
    This comes with 129ml of sublimation inks
    For each subsequent purchase of 129ml of ink, you have to pay £204
    So per ml, your ink cost is £1.58

    For comparisons sake, let's scale these figures to litres, so to buy 4 litres of ink at this unit cost, you'll be forking out £6325.58 Obviously, you're not going to be buying that much ink as part of your initial purchase/set-up, but over time you will.

    So as a total package you're looking at £6637.52

    Now let's have a look at what you could get for that same money in large format land...

    Printer: Epson SureColor SC-T7000 (4 colour/44" wide) list price (from Epson website)
    £3594
    4 litres of bulk sublimation ink £330
    Refillable carts £100 (estimated cost)

    Total package £3994
    Change left over from small format package cost £2643.52

    With that left over budget you could buy a good quality press, or a load of blanks, papers, more inks...

  2. #2
    Administrator Justin's Avatar
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    Very interesting comparison and a valid point. I would add however that not many people dipping their toe into sublimation would have access to £4000 to justify this outlay. Adding on the cost of a good press etc. makes this a large scale investment. This is why so many people spend just over £300 to get them started, then they can start to earn money, make a profit and upgrade as and when they need a large scale printing operation that requires a 44" printer.

    The way I look at this is to see how many blanks, mugs, coasters etc. you can print for the cost of those carts, still plenty of room for profit without having to invest £1000's up front on a printer. How many printers can really say they need a printer of this scale when they're selling a few odds and sods here and there?

    Also worth remembering is your shelf life on those inks, 4 litres of ink will take some time to use. Fine if you're printing 1000's of blanks a week.

    Appreciate the 'point' you're making here but the vast majority of people won't have £4000+ to start out their new venture.
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  3. #3
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    While interesting Pisquee it is a little skewed J

    For example if you took your example of mugs and cases etc then, like all businesses you would want to minimise your outlay as a start up. So taking your figures and assuming you sell anything you print for £10.00 (for example) and lets assume that any purchase of blanks would cost £1.00 (again as an example). Now, not factoring in ink, it would take 35 cases approx. to payback your investment on kit from BMS. You would have to sell 399 similar items if you purchased the Epson.

    Also, the Epson set up would be considerably larger in foot space which does cost money and would have to be factored in. Looking at the two machines I have roughly calculated that the Epson will cost 255% more for rent.

    There are no maintenance costs included in your calculation either. While I appreciate that the Epson is a very good machine, likewise the Ricoh, but have you factored a service contract or have you calculated any costs for routine servicing? I used to have a Epson 9600 which survived an oil factory explosion. Bullet proof yes, but you still have to factor in servicing.

    As you know, I am with you on the whole Sawgrass debate, which does finish later this year anyway, but to present an argument for using different inks on a wide format system it has to be presented correctly, otherwise you can be seen as though you are just trying to push third party inks in a biased way.

    Interestingly I personally think that Sawgrass will have to reduce the cost of their ink when the patent runs out otherwise people will switch to different inks. This happens all the time in the drug industry, tablets that cost £1.00 when they hold the patent are reduced to half that when the seven years are up.

    I know you are big enough to know that I am not having a go, I just think that it does need to be presented with ALL the facts taken into consideration

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    I admit it was just a quick working out, and I hadn't factored all the costs in, but it was more a food for thought to highlight exactly how much the difference is in in costs of the different ink choices, and how much it will add up over time.
    I would think that there is room in the budgeting given to have a service contract on the printer, and a RIP if you saw the need.
    For most of our sublimation printing, we don't need a printer a metre wide, but the better quality of printer we get by having one this big, along with the better choice and quality of available inks, for us there was no question that it was a good move, but then I admit we didn't have the budget to buy new kit, so we bought 2nd hand printer and converted it.

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    Even the price between a ricoh SG3110 (A4) and ricoh GX7100 (A3) inks differ a lot.

    700 4 x 60ml = 240ml for £276.00 = £1.15 per ml
    3110 3x29ml + 1x42ml = 129ml for £204.00 = £1.58 per ml

  6. #6
    Senior Member bms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viccar View Post
    Even the price between a ricoh SG3110 (A4) and ricoh GX7100 (A3) inks differ a lot.

    700 4 x 60ml = 240ml for £276.00 = £1.15 per ml
    3110 3x29ml + 1x42ml = 129ml for £204.00 = £1.58 per ml
    Look at this another way:

    Official cost per print information from Sawgrass...
    Same image size, same colour density (8" x 8.8") using Ricoh SG3110 £0.22 (with standard cartridges), using Ricoh GXe7700 (with standard cartridges) £0.25, with Epson 1400/ 1500 £0.20

    Costs per ml of ink are not the same as costs per print. Look at this in terms of your own cars - petrol v diesel costs per litre and then the difference in the number of miles a car will do per litre and the cost per mile travelled. Some cars will do 70-80 miles per gallon, others will do 20-30 miles per gallon. Just because diesel is more expensive than petrol doesn't mean the cost of the mile travelled is more expensive.

    Just because the ml cost of Ricoh ink is more expensive than the ml cost of Artainium doesn't mean the cost per page print is the same factor more expensive.

    All the cost per page print information is on the Sawgrass website. As always, do your own research and look at comparable information, not headlines. It's all too easy to do the political thing of 'spinning' the information to portray different agendas.

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