DSF

bms;20917 wrote:I don't think this is true JSR. I can get Orca coated mugs without them being stamped and that's from the business partner who has the rights to the Orca coating. I could get one of my old emails of a few years ago that said "our mugs are dishwasher proof" from many a Chinese supplier, but it's not worth anything as they are not.

That's missing the point slightly. I know Orca coated mugs are dishwasher safe because I've tested them, but mine is a small voice. My small voice against the louder voice of a supplier like Listawood is worth nothing. The customer will believe that the mugs are not dishwasher safe, because Listawood says so even though they are dishwasher-safe. If there was a document from the manufacturer of the Orca-coating to say that the mugs are dishwasher safe, then I'd have a louder voice than Listawood.

It's not about whether the mugs are dishwasher safe or not (because I know that they are), it's about having some way to counter the false claims of suppliers who just want to sell the more expensive product.

bms;20917 wrote:I think this confirms that RN (AKA duraglaze) still leads the way in terms of durability, but there are some other coatings getting close.

The irony here is that I first stopped buying Duraglaze-coated mugs because I learned that RN is the way to go. By calling their mugs something else, Listawood must lose a lot of sales. Why don't they just call them "RN"..? In order to prop up a brand that doesn't need to exist, they make scurrilous claims about someone else's brand. That can't be right.

What's sad is that I'd love to switch back to RN coated mugs. I don't use Orca through choice but through necessity, as they are the only way I know of getting a dishwasher-safe mug that isn't subject to the pinprick/white-spot issues of RN.

I guess Listawood wanted to create their own brand of coating to build in customer loyalty. Only use 'duraglaze because...' and dura laze is only available from Listawood. Its the same as other sublimation suppliers calling their inks something other than Artainium. Several suppliers use different names but it's Artainium in the bottle.

As for the White spot issue, this isn't a problem of RN, this was a problem of air in the spray line when spraying the coating. That issue doesn't existing anymore.

bms;20941 wrote:That issue doesn't existing anymore.

With respect, Martin, I have difficulty accepting that.

You'll recall back in November, when you first assured me that the problem was solved, you very generously offered me the opportunity of two orders at reduced cost to encourage me back to your European RN mugs. The first box I bought in had exactly the same issues as before, so I didn't go for the second order.

Saying the issue doesn't exist doesn't make it so.

I would *love* to return to RN mugs, but I can't keep buying in mugs that I'll end up wasting. I've spent several hundred pounds just on mugs in the first three months of the year in what's been a surprisingly profitable time for me, but I've had to stay away from RN mugs because I would have lost all of that profit together with a huge amount of my time due to the "white spot" issue.

I still have some of the RN mugs (both European 10oz and Sparta) here that I can't get shot of. I haven't yet recovered from the stress of the run up to Christmas when I had to panic-buy Sparta mugs from elsewhere simply because the RN ones let me down. I think I aged 10 years in three days just trying to fulfil a very simple order.

I'm not in this business just to pay for the deficiencies of poor-quality blanks. For me it isn't a question of whether Orca vs RN vs Duraglaze is better or worse than any other, it's about getting in mugs that I can sell to my customers without throwing half (or more) away. At present, the only ones I can be sure of are Orca-coated mugs - not because they're Orca-coated but because they're not RN coated.

I'm aware that pretty much no one else is aware of the problem and that posts such as this one are inevitably followed by a dozen saying "I don't have any problem, BMS RN mugs are the best" - that's fine for those who don't perceive the problem, but it doesn't change the fact that I've already wasted far more time & money on this than I should have.

I'm not saying whether or not the issue has been solved by now, excepting that no one believed that there was an issue to solve before I raised it, I'm just saying that I can't afford to keep risking it.

Between not being able to use RN mugs because of the white spot issue, and now not being able to use Orca mugs because of Listawood's damaging campaign against them, I'm left with no mugs that I can use. It's a ridiculous situation to be in, and a highly frustrating one for my business. There has never been a time that I've wished that TAMS were still around more than now.

jonathan! you said no one else had little pinholes problem... Well... I dont know if we talk about this same type of mugs but few months a go i ordered two boxes of 11oz mugs from BMS and quite few of them had a pinholes in coating so i know this problem. Luckly my mate said not to worry about them as they only for promotional event.

And I thought It was me being picky.....I have had quite a few mugs from Listawood that have had the spots/pinpricks in the glaze and have not sold them because I wouldn't want to buy one like it. Being 4500 miles away from the supplier means its not worth returning them so I have just bit the bullet and lived with it. Not happy about it though when you have to do two mugs to get one good one. I put it down to dust in the atmosphere when spraying the coating as I have seen similar problems on photographic emulsions in the past. Be nice if the quality control was a bit tighter before the mugs where sent out. This applies to all manufacturers/suppliers. Now I buy most of my stuff through BMS as at least they arrive in one piece and that is saying something when the boxes have been handled by Grenadian dock handlers. Even then I have had coating issues so no one is immune. Thanks for bringing this into the open JSR maybe things might improve if more of us kept on top of it.

It's always good to get feedback so if there are problems with glaze then please let me know. I can only get to hear of this is you guys let me know and send a picture of the offending issues to our normal email address. The white spotting was caused by air in the line and the B Grade mugs were earmarked for exactly that purpose, but the normal European mugs have been, dare I say it, spot on (no pun intended). If there are spots occuring on mugs then we need to know to give our suppliers an ear bashing! Drop us an email with pics please if this is widespread.

bms;21015 wrote:It's always good to get feedback so if there are problems with glaze then please let me know. I can only get to hear of this is you guys let me know and send a picture of the offending issues to our normal email address. The white spotting was caused by air in the line and the B Grade mugs were earmarked for exactly that purpose, but the normal European mugs have been, dare I say it, spot on (no pun intended). If there are spots occuring on mugs then we need to know to give our suppliers an ear bashing! Drop us an email with pics please if this is widespread.

I had the same problem as Jonathan & with great respect Martin I did tell you about it & wasn't offered any kind of replacements. So, I'm surprised that Jonathan was offered a discount on his next order.

As for air in the 'air in the spray line' I thought you needed this to propel the liquid you were spraying. To me it looked like a water droplet problem which I remember seeing many years ago when I worked in the car industry. This is usually easily overcome by draining the system of any water build up first & then fitting a decent filtering system to trap as much of the water as possible. It also needs the system draining of any water build up at the end of every shift too.

The only real way of dealing with this problem is to do what the car industry did & that was to make the paint facility a clinical type of area. In fact you only have to look at most vehicle bodyshops now to see how far they have come with the equipment & clothing they use to achieve a blemish free finish.

I also think that we could do with some kind of industry standard on the products & testing to a conformed standard is really the way to go.

i had those on my:

bms;20862 wrote: Offer only available to DSF members
If all 56 cases sell the best price is £38 inc vat, inc delivery each - offer only available to DSF members
If up to 28 cases sell the best price is £40 inc vat, inc delivery each

This needs putting in the Member to Member offers category to stand any chance of being met by members

Justin;21021 wrote:This needs putting in the Member to Member offers category to stand any chance of being met by members

Ok, will copy & paste...