DSF

The major problem is your not Getty images, and the court will see this. I agree that you need to chase these people down but the figures you're quoting aren't realistic in my opinion.

I'd go to see a solicitor and get some advise off them before deciding to tie money up in costs. I read a similar thread on another website and after years of chasing people the original artist gave up as he wasn't getting anywhere fast.

Getty represents individual designers and photographers though. I can charge the going rate. £4400 is nothing compared to the lifetime of sales I will lose out due to a counterfitter. Given the choice of selling a sports car or going to prison for up to ten years, would you not make an offer of half the damages? Has anyone faced a sentence, surely this guy must be candidate due to the amount of trademark infringement?

GoonerGary;22179 wrote:Given the choice of selling a sports car or going to prison for up to ten years, would you not make an offer of half the damages? Has anyone faced a sentence, surely this guy must be candidate due to the amount of trademark infringement?

Where do you get the idea that he'd go for prison for ten years?

Infringement of copyright is a civil offence, not a criminal offence. I was under the impression that you don't go to prison for a civil offence.

GoonerGary;22179 wrote:Getty represents individual designers and photographers though. I can charge the going rate. £4400 is nothing compared to the lifetime of sales I will lose out due to a counterfitter. Given the choice of selling a sports car or going to prison for up to ten years, would you not make an offer of half the damages? Has anyone faced a sentence, surely this guy must be candidate due to the amount of trademark infringement?

Trademark infringement and copyright infringement are two different things... And jail time is only relevant in terms of criminal actions... There would need to be some element of fraud or perhaps contempt of court; both WELL outside the scope of a simple copyright infringement action...

IF you feel there is a criminal element to what has happened then you need to talk to your local Trading Standards Officers...

The only really legitimate advice that can be given by any non-lawyer is to see an appropriate specialist solicitor with specific expertise in I.P. -

There has in the past (and it's still ongoing) been a load of dangerous bunkum written about copyright on various foums. ...Largely by people who are nothing short of self-aggrandising, attention-seeking fakes, frauds and flim-flam artists. -There are even 'legal firms' out there giving I.P. advice who do not even seem to be registered with the law societies!!

The whole thing is a minefield... And there is little benefit in muddying the waters further.

As for Getty - They just represent themselves! As much as they may seem to be 'fighting the good fight' on the face of it - fact is thay are, in my opinion, sharks who prey as much or the photographers and other creatives as they do infringers... Much as they might have given some folk a 'wake up call' they're far from the rightful occupants of the moral high ground...

JSR;22180 wrote:Where do you get the idea that he'd go for prison for ten years?

Infringement of copyright is a civil offence, not a criminal offence. I was under the impression that you don't go to prison for a civil offence.

A Bill which increases the maximum penalty for copyright theft in the UK from two years to 10 years has become law.....

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/07/30 ... copyright/

I believe the people in question are involved in fairly large scale trademark infringement along with the lesser offense of violating my copyright.

As for getty, I'm no fan of them, but used their price as a guideline for the industry standard, licences are negotiable afterall.

Slightly misleading article IMHO... Look at the dates for a start! That bill was introduced in 2000-2001

Offences: Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 -

Full text here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/contents

[FONT="Times New Roman][COLOR="blue]Under section 107(1) a person commits an offence who, without the licence of the copy right owner -

(a) makes for sale or hire, or
(b) imports into the united kingdom otherwise that for his private and domestic use, or
(c) possesses in the course of a business with a view to committing any act infringing the copyright, or
(d) in the course of a business -
(i) sells or lets for hire, or
(ii) offers or exposes for sale or hire, or
(ill) exhibits in public, or
(iv) distributes, or
(e) distributes otherwise than in the course of a business to such an extent as to affect prejudicially the owner of the copyright,

An article which is, and which he knows or has reason to believe is, an infringing copy of a copyright work.

Under section 107(2) a person commits an offence who -
(a) makes an article specially designed or adapted for making copies of a particular copyright work, or
(b) has such an article in his possession,
knowing or having a reason to believe that it is to be used to make infringing copies for sale or hire or for use in the course of a business.
Under section 107(3) where copyright is infringed (otherwise than by reception of a broadcast or cable programme) -
(a) by the public performance of a literary, dramatic or musical work, or
(b) by the playing or showing in public of a sound recording or film,
Any person who caused the work to be so performed, played or shown is guilty of an offence if he knew or had reason to believe that copyright would be infringed.

Penalties: Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988
Section 107(4) provides that the offences under section 107(1)(a),(b),(d)(iv) and (e) are offences tryable either way. On conviction on indictment the maximum penalty is ten years imprisonment and/or an unlimited fine. On summary conviction the maximum penalty is 6 months imprisonment and/or a £5,000 fine. All of the remaining offences under section 107 are summary offences carrying a maximum penalty of 6 months imprisonment and/or a £5,000 fine.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[COLOR="black] Historically this part of the act deals primarily with video and audio piracy; although it has also been used to 'build up' cases where certain design styles have been copied - Basically though this is to do with FRAUD and COUNTERFEIT goods! NOT simple infringement!

- In practice compiling you favourite tracks from your favourite band into a ringtone then offering it for sale may well be a flagrant infringement (and likely to cost you your house!). But is unlikely to be pursued as a criminal offence unless you tout it in some way as an 'official' release...

Producing copies of their last album (i.e. counterfeitting) may well be criminally pursued...

Again; concerns of this nature really need to be raised with Trading Standards and are outside the scope of any civil action or remedy.

[/COLOR]

I remember a few years back when I had a non-paying customer. It wasn't a massive sum of money about £4,000 I think and that was a lot to me. The guy had absolutely no justification for not paying, he just didn't pay.

I went to see my solicitor for advice and I remember using a phrase like, 'it's the principle of it'. What I mean't was, I could swallow losing the £4,000 painful though it was, but on principle I was going to take him to court. My solicitor, also a friend said, "John, principles can cost you a lot of money".

I embarked on a small claims court summons and everything went downhill from there. He, the guy who owed me money and had far more than me issued a counterclaim against me for a whopping £20,000!!!! This counterclaim was entirely with out any foundation or truth but it frightened me rigid. It had a huge effect on my family life too and my business suffered.

What started off as a small claim ended up costing me thousands that I didn't have - barristers, expert opinion etc etc. It was one of the most scary times in my life. The case was elevated from the small claims court to a higher court because of the amount of the counter claim. The upshot was that I now had to see it through to the end as I couldn't pull out without settling his claim for £20,000 plus my costs and his costs which amounted to more than £20,000! I was in for the long haul.

I attended several court appearances with the final hearing to be held on a Monday. The Friday before I attended a meeting with my barrister, solicitor & expert witness to discuss the case. Whilst I was at this (costly) meeting my barrister left the room to take a phone call and when he returned he told me that the solicitors for the other side had thrown the towel in, withdrawn the counter claim, agreed to meet all legal expenses and pay my outstanding bill of £4,000. Victory!! But at what cost?

My health was effected - I went through hell, my family were affected, my business folded etc etc. And guess what, he never did pay me the £4,000, he didn't pay my legal costs either, what he did do was to completely ignore the ruling of the courts!

Now, I can hear you guys saying, why didn't I go after him ............................ Do you really want to know?

So, some guy has stolen one or more of your designs. What has been your financial loss? What evidence can you put before a judge to show your financial loss?

My advice, unless you have deep pockets, swallow the hit and get on with what you do best. Life can be a real B*tch sometimes and 'principles can cost you a lot of money', lots of it!!

Quite a story, but on what grounds can someone counterclaim for £20K? Obviously a very special case that's unlikely to affect myself for example. I assume he tried to frighten you out of court and he was clearly advised at the end that he wasn't going to be successful.

Assuming it went to court, my direct financial loss is the amount of units the infringer sold and I have evidence of his sales. I can easily prove that my design was first along with sales records which pre-date his. My loss is that he will continue to sell my best selling designs at half the price. he may even copy the rest. I either put a stop to all the copy artists or go out of business myself.

I'm not frightened of court cases having previously settled out of court with PayPal who backed down. I was just the poor guy with principal and was owed money.

Quite a story, but on what grounds can someone counterclaim for £20K? Obviously a very special case that's unlikely to affect myself for example. I assume he tried to frighten you out of court and he was clearly advised at the end that he wasn't going to be successful.

Assuming it went to court, my direct financial loss is the amount of units the infringer sold and I have evidence of his sales. I can easily prove that my design was first along with sales records which pre-date his. My loss is that he will continue to sell my best selling designs at half the price. he may even copy the rest. I either put a stop to all the copy artists or go out of business myself.

I'm not frightened of court cases having previously settled out of court with PayPal who backed down. I was just the poor guy with principal and was owed money.

I have followed this thread with interest, I'll be honest I probably only understand half if that of what being quoted, and I sure there's loads more that we don't know about, which only the professionals know, and the end of the day it is about what you think is right and I wish you well and hope it goes the way you wish. £4.000 in this day and age would effect most small business would fold (cash flow ) that also would effect your health and other things that stitch up mentioned. Hardly any small business under the vat allowance would survives with a loss of 4.000 and if he had not paid your solicitor fees barrister and witness fees, I cannot see them waiting because he ignored the court order, not unless he declared him self bankrupt or left the country, did any body get paid, is he still doing your designs. or did he think that he paid nothing and is still copying your work. Good luck with your case and I admire your strength of character and principals.