DSF

I'd read different reviews about both the S21 & P50 and noted that neither were supported by Sawgrass for sublimation printing. I've not seen anything to explain why these two printers weren't supported. Some sellers on eBay do sell the S21 for sublimation.

So I bought one of each, £80 for the P50 brand new, £20 for the S21 refurb'd. I'm testing them both with 3rd party inks.

THE PRINTERS

Epson P50 - 6 colour printer, excellent build quality, very much a smaller brother to the 1400, noise levels and speed of print much the same so I guess they may share certain build elements. Good solid design, I'd expected a similar printer to the D120 but this is somewhat better.

Epson S21 - 4 colour printer, obviously a cheap entry level design machine and the build quality reflects this. Not as well built as the old D88 printers. Noise level incredibly high, never heard a printer make such a racket! Paper guides attach in the usual places but are either fixed or removed, there's no sliding trays here!

PRINT TESTS

I'm using a good quality photograph based design that has been put into a graphic template so a good mixture of colours, tones etc.

1400 Always gives excellent, consistent results with very little trouble along the way.

I ran the P50 using the 1400 profile. I guessed that as they're both 6 colour machines that'd be a good starting place. Excellent prints as I expected, colours appear even better than the 1400, the colours on the 1400 print appear slightly over-bright at the side of the P50, certainly a slightly more natural print. Probably more down to the different inks than anything.

I then went on to test the S21 using the D88 profile, not expecting much at all. I put my fingers in my ears as the printer came to life..what a noise! Some time later, far slower than the P50, a print emerged that didn't look all to different to the P50 test print. As we know, you don't get a true indication until the items are pressed.

THE FINAL PRESSED ITEMS

I've always been impressed withthe 1400, so much so that I stay away from using the Ricohs as personally I just don't feel they give as good a reproduction.

Printing to coasters and mugs, the P50 gave an excellent result, similar to the 1400 but more subtle and as mentioned above, not quite as bright.

Now comes the shocker...The S21! Excellent quality print, far better than expected, colours even better than both the 1400 & P50, more subtle through-out. I'm so surprised at this little printer doing quite so well. I have a design that is printed from a scanned piece of woolen material and the colours have always been difficult to replicate. The S21 has come closer than anything I've ever managed.

LONGER TERM

We've all probably set up printers in the past only to get problems further down the line with blockages, air locks etc. so time really will tell. I'm keeping these two printers active alongside my 1400. They've both been sat for over a week now. The P50 gave a perfect nozzle check very quickly following instalation, the S21 took a couple of overnights and several head cleans but has been fine ever since.

To conclude my findings so far. Both of these printers appear to be perfectly able to print a high quality print-out, the P50 being the quieter and better quality printer but the S21 being the biggest surprise managing to produce an excellent print. It's early days and I'll need to tweak things a little on the P50 but I'm confident that I can get the colours as good as the S21 with the added bonus of slightly better skin tones.

I know some members have use the S21 before and had problems so it would be very interesting to hear about these. Obviously the above is just based upon my own personal findings.

I'd be interested to know what the driving force is to use a different printer? There are comments on the forum about the S21 and Sawgrass have tested, and ruled out this particular printer. Don't think the P50 has been tested, but again it begs the question of why would you want to use this printer?

Several reasons, mainly simple inquisitiveness.

I chose the P50 for the reason that it's a 6 colour machine and there is no A4 6 colour supported by Sawgrass. With the vast majority of sublimation being printed onto A4 it would seem obvious that an A4/6 colour be supported, yet it isn't.

The S21 it appears to be discussed on different forums with mixed results. If this printer was capable it would be a very low cost entry into the world of sublimation. What reason do Sawgrass give for not supporting the S21? Why hasn't the P50 been tested?

now lets see some pictures

Hi,

As an avid fan & user of an S21 I can only second what Justin says in his review. I have been using my S21 now for several months & I have found it to be so much better than the D120 I was using & have had no problems with it at all. The D120 was a total nightmare most of the time to the point where I really dreaded using it.

The driving force in my book is cost alone. I like so many others are finding this year to be quite a struggle & business has just started to pick up. I for one would sooner try to make my own living rather than sit around job hunting whilst on state benefits.

To answer the question of why would you want to use this printer is simple as it is the cheapest way to get work done. Now my question is why is it such an issue with certain people if some of us have managed to get these printers to work very well & produce quality work which our customers are more than happy with.

I'm sick of paying over the odds for what is supposed to be quality equpment or blanks to print onto. Not so long since I shelled out good money for what I thought were premium mugs only to find a couple broken & half a box that were pitted. I for one don't really care what Sawgrass think or say to be honest but, I like a lot more are getting a bit fed up of them trying to dictate to us all the time.

My Grandad who was a Scot always used to say to me 'Whilst you have money in your pocket you can choose to spend it where you want & with whom you want'. That is exactly what I do & will always do.

I'm sticking with my S21 because it is a superb reliable little work horse that turns out quality prints with no issues at all. Sod what anyone else thinks.

Justin, one tip with the S21 is to just turn it on every day as that tends to keep it clear.

Ian

What reason do Sawgrass give for not supporting the S21?

Build quality for starters - the S21 is designed as an entry level home printer. Normally these would be used infrequently by users as opposed to being used with a bulk feed system for regular printing like dye subbers would use it for. It's just not a very good printer (Ian has a different view though ).

Why hasn't the P50 been tested?

Why haven't lots of other printers been tested might be more of the question? I don't know the full reason but I'd suggest it's because there isn't a driving need for it. There is an Epson A4 printer and a Ricoh A4 printer which are both supported. Why would more A4 printers make a different? The only possible reason is that the P50 is a 6 colour printer compared to the 4 colour printers of the others, but apart from the occasional comment like "why isn't there an A4 6 colour printer?" there isn't a demand. If, on the other hand, huge volumes of users were complaining about the print quality of a 4 colour printer then there might be more of a case, but of all the A4 (and A3) 4 colour printers we're sold over the years I can't recall a single instance of a customer coming back and saying "I wish I had gone for a 6 colour printer". The vast majority of users are happy with the output of a 4 colour printer (and presumably so are their customers).

bms wrote:

(Ian has a different view though ).

Oh I have

The D88 was an entry level £50 printer, I ran 2 of those for several years and rarely had any problem at all.

Many users will be based at home and won't be printing large volumes. These users could probably manage quite easily on refil. carts and the printer will rarely be put under any considerable strain.

Epson printers are often knocked as being inferior to other makes yet there's never any mention of any other makes being tested up until the Ricohs, now many users are saying they'll never return to Epson because of problems they had over and over, so yes you're right, the S21 isn't a particularly wonderful printer but have the supported models faired so well over the years? If the S21 packs up, blocks, it's £39.99 delivered to repalce it new, worth a punt in my book.

My own opinion is a 4 colour doesn't compare to a 6 colour, usually noticable with skin tones and gradients. Whilst mose customers will be more than happy with a 4 colour print out, some customers won't. One of my biggest customers is a photographic shop and they appreciate the difference. The last company I worked for wouldn't use anything but 8 colour sublimation. I have to reproduce scanned knitted material onto coasters, mugs etc. and the 6 colour outshines here again.

Epson printers are often knocked as being inferior to other makes yet there's never any mention of any other makes being tested up until the Ricohs

You can rule out the HP's, Lexmark's, Dell's and any other printer that uses a cartridge with a built in printhead as the ink in the cartridge acts as a coolant during printing. Introducing sublimation ink where there is heat during the printing process is a complete non starter.

That then leaves some Canon printers (bubblejet) and Brothers. I'm not an expert on the bubble jet technology so not sure if the ink is a coolant with this, nor the Brother printhead although I recall reading something on here about Brother printers.

If I were Sawgrass I'd need to hear a convincing argument for moving away from the Epson platform (presumably they have in a sense as they now support the Ricohs - but presumably only after time and effort in developing the gel based sublimation ink). I'm not making any justification for Epson or Ricoh but just looking at this from a business perspective. Develop sublimation ink for lots of different printers and/ or platforms and you create the need for a larger support network which (a) costs and (b) requires a cascading of knowledge to the support network and distributors. Of course you can argue that Sawgrass can afford this, but this support network needs replicating through the UK/ World by all the distributors.

If there were 10 Epson A4 models supported I doubt the distributors would stock anything like 10 different printers, let alone Epsons plus Ricohs plus other brands

bms wrote:If there were 10 Epson A4 models supported I doubt the distributors would stock anything like 10 different printers, let alone Epsons plus Ricohs plus other brands

Not looking for 10, just the 2 A cheap, entry level machine for small users and a decent A4 6 colour printer. it's something I'd be interested in discussing more with Sawgrass but they never seem particularly keen to listen to customers.